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Abortion Abortion Forum - A complex ethical, moral, philosophical, biological, and legal issue


View Poll Results: Would you still support abortion if you were convinced that abortions kill a Child?
Yes, I probably would 5 55.56%
No, I probably would not 4 44.44%
Voters: 9. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 30th, 2016, 07:27 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
1. Can you support that claim?

2. What are your thoughts on fetal homicide laws which define it as a child and make it a crime of murder to criminally kill one of any age and in ANY stage of development?
I think I see where you are coming from. When the sperm cell penetrates the egg cell, that is human life before the egg cell divides and before the DNA combines. That is one way to look at it.
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Old January 30th, 2016, 07:28 PM   #22
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Of course I would be against abortion if I were convinced a child were being harmed. I just don't seen anyone convincing me that a collection of cells that does not have brain activity is a child.
Yours is the position I was most hoping to find in this thread.

Would you be willing to engage in a question and answer session on the subject?
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Old January 30th, 2016, 07:31 PM   #23
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I think I see where you are coming from. When the sperm cell penetrates the egg cell, that is human life before the egg cell divides and before the DNA combines. That is one way to look at it.
Close.

It's not before though.

It's "when" they combine to form the new organism. . .
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Old January 30th, 2016, 07:36 PM   #24
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Close.

It's not before though.

It's "when" they combine to form the new organism. . .
It is refreshing that this is a scientific debate. How long does it take for the human egg to divide after fertilized? I take that you think the 'Morning After Pill" is acceptable.
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Old January 30th, 2016, 07:37 PM   #25
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That's a great question that almost deserves a thread of it's own.

The answer is pretty simple really.

When conception takes place, there is no way to know for certain that twinning will occur.

Correct?

So, conception begins the first twin's life. Then, if and when twinning does occur, that's when the 2nd twin's life (being/ existence) begins.

This is supported by the definitions and the understandings of the words "conception" and "inception" as they apply to pregnancy.


...


So, how do you reconcile that belief with the idea of individual rights and our laws against things like murder and molestation?
1. So, in other words, "life" allegedly begins when a loosely- and human-defined word definition says it does? This approach doesn't appear very objective, if you ask me. I mean, how would an objective observer eliminate the inherent bias that exists when the hypothesis that "life begins at 'conception'" is tested, and the researchers themselves get to provide whatever language definition they choose to represent the word "conception?"

2. What's there to actually reconcile between what I said about the seemingly continuum of all Earth life and "individual rights and our laws against things like murder and molestation?" I merely stated the seemingly obvious.
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Old January 30th, 2016, 07:41 PM   #26
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voluntary population control. of all of the pointless things that the government pays for i think that abortion should be subsidized until we can free ourselves from being farmed by the state. IMO people who have had abortions should be given tax credits for a series of years following the abortion for not burdening society w/ another person. abortions are good for the environment and the economy.

do you support taxpayer funded war? executions?

those are the taking of already viable human life, where as yours is hypothetical
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Old January 30th, 2016, 07:50 PM   #27
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It is refreshing that this is a scientific debate.
Thank you.

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How long does it take for the human egg to divide after fertilized?
About 24hrs, if I recall correctly

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I take that you think the 'Morning After Pill" is acceptable.
I have no problem with anything that prevents conception from taking place.

However, I do have concerns with it's ability to be used as an abortifacient either intentionally or even un-intentionally.
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Old January 30th, 2016, 07:58 PM   #28
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That's a great question that almost deserves a thread of it's own.

The answer is pretty simple really.

When conception takes place, there is no way to know for certain that twinning will occur.

Correct?

So, conception begins the first twin's life. Then, if and when twinning does occur, that's when the 2nd twin's life (being/ existence) begins.

This is supported by the definitions and the understandings of the words "conception" and "inception" as they apply to pregnancy.

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Understood.

So, how do you reconcile that belief with the idea of individual rights and our laws against things like murder and molestation?
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1. So, in other words, "life" allegedly begins when a loosely- and human-defined word definition says it does?
Words mean things. They are heavily debated and scrutinized, so I reject the idea that this is purely semantics.

Also, I can not tell from your comment whether you are talking about "life" in general and whether you are talking about an individual life.

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Originally Posted by baloney_detector View Post
This approach doesn't appear very objective, if you ask me. I mean, how would an objective observer eliminate the inherent bias that exists when the hypothesis that "life begins at 'conception'" is tested, and the researchers themselves get to provide whatever language definition they choose to represent the word "conception?"
I think one (objective) approach would be to examine the sciences and findings that have little to nothing to do with the abortion debate.

The sciences that have to do with Aging for example.

"Aging is a very natural process. It begins at conception and continues throughout the life cycle."

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Originally Posted by baloney_detector View Post
2. What's there to actually reconcile between what I said about the seemingly continuum of all Earth life and "individual rights and our laws against things like murder and molestation?" I merely stated the seemingly obvious.
Given that you reject the idea of conception beginning a new individual's life, I still don't know what your views are on laws against murder as it relates to that.
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Old January 30th, 2016, 08:06 PM   #29
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voluntary population control. of all of the pointless things that the government pays for i think that abortion should be subsidized until we can free ourselves from being farmed by the state.
Do you believe in individual rights?

If you answered yes, then do you believe a person's rights should begin when their life does?

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IMO people who have had abortions should be given tax credits for a series of years following the abortion for not burdening society w/ another person. abortions are good for the environment and the economy.
In your view, who else should we (society) deny the right to life to - in order help our environment and our economy?

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do you support taxpayer funded war? executions?
Yes. My position is based on the fact that an aborted child is denied their right to due process and the presumption of innocence among other rights that are deprived.

Execute criminals are afforded their rights to due process.

Likewise, Wars are only legitimate when they are an act of Defense of our Nation or our Allies.

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those are the taking of already viable human life, where as yours is hypothetical
All living things are viable - else they would be dead or rapidly dying on their own.
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Old January 30th, 2016, 08:06 PM   #30
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Of course I would be against abortion if I were convinced a child were being harmed. I just don't seen anyone convincing me that a collection of cells that does not have brain activity is a child.
brilliantly put, and i completely agree.

thats why most people are opposed to late term abortions, except perhaps in dire situations.
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