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Abortion Abortion Forum - A complex ethical, moral, philosophical, biological, and legal issue


View Poll Results: Would the person who connected themself to the child obligated for the full 9 Months?
Yes - They would be 2 50.00%
No - They would not be 2 50.00%
Voters: 4. You may not vote on this poll

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Old February 3rd, 2016, 08:19 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Asimov View Post
I'm not familiar with the violinist analogy, but I'm familiar with Plato's Cave Allegory. I have always viewed that in the context of reasoned faith and experience in God--though that is not what Plato had in mind at the time-- but I'm curious how you relate that to a decision whether to terminate a pregnancy. Please elaborate.
its a cool analogy IMO, i would recommend looking it up as it is presented here a bit off.
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Old February 3rd, 2016, 09:05 AM   #12
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this is ridiculous. to follow this hypothetical i need to suspend reality so many times in so many ways i end up in a fantasy world that doesnt relate to this world in any meaningful way. its just non- sensical.
The same can be said of the "Violinist" analogy but that hasn't kept it from being used in Abortion debates and discussions for the many years since it was first written. Has it.

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i can see what you are trying to do, but its really clumsy and just doesnt work.
I was trying find an analogy that closer approximates the risks and responsibilities of getting pregnant in a world where our laws have determined that life begins at conception.

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try this one- if a woman gets pregnant and it is before 20 weeks, so there is not a functioning brain in the foetus, the foetus is living human tissue but it is not able to even be aware of itself let alone feel, experience, or react in any way, whats the ethical problem with ending the pregnancy at that stage?
That does not get to the reason for this analogy.

You see, in many abortion debates, the subject often comes up that women have the final say with regard to their autonomy. Pro-aborts will often claim that "even if" life beings at conception and even if the woman "invited" the child into her womb with her actions. . . the woman has the right (in their opinion) to change her mind.

This analogy addresses that aspect in a way that the Violinist theory did not.

Last edited by Chuz Life; February 3rd, 2016 at 10:37 AM.
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Old February 3rd, 2016, 09:09 AM   #13
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The child is dead. Call in a coroner.
Was my wife Dead when she too had no measurable brainwaves to indicate any thought or response to pain?

For what it's worth, she came out of that state 3 weeks later. She suffered a permanent brain injury from the lack of oxygen but she's still the same PERSON she was prior to her injury.

Last edited by Chuz Life; February 3rd, 2016 at 10:36 AM.
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Old February 3rd, 2016, 09:10 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Twisted Sister View Post
Thompson's Violin Analogy is a new one for me and my sister is a violinist and will ask her. Plato's Allegory of the Cave and Murphy's Law, I am very familiar with because I have hands on experience.
Did you click on the link and read the analogy?

LINK- Judith Jarvis Thomson: A Defense of Abortion
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Old February 3rd, 2016, 10:43 AM   #15
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Imagine the child is in a coma and is completely unaware. The child has no measurable brain waves to indicate any level of self awareness, No ability for thought, No sense of pain, etc.
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Originally Posted by Nwolfe35 View Post
The child is dead. Call in a coroner.
Woman Came Back From the Dead After 17 Hours with No Measurable Brain Waves - Alex Santoso •

"After Velma Thomas' heart stopped beating three times and more than 17 hours with no measurable brain waves, her family said their goodbyes and took her off life support.

Then something completely unexpected happened: she miraculously came back to life!"


Doctor Calls Near-Death Experience a 'Miracle'- ABC NEWS

"Velma Thomas' heart stopped beating three times -- and her doctors thought she was dead.

She was taken by ambulance to a local West Virginia hospital when her heart stopped after experiencing symptoms of a heart attack. For more than 17 hours, Thomas had no measurable brain waves, according to her doctors."

Last edited by Chuz Life; February 3rd, 2016 at 11:07 AM.
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Old February 3rd, 2016, 10:51 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
Woman Came Back From the Dead After 17 Hours with No Measurable Brain Waves - Alex Santoso

"After Velma Thomas' heart stopped beating three times and more than 17 hours with no measurable brain waves, her family said their goodbyes and took her off life support.

Then something completely unexpected happened: she miraculously came back to life!"
Aren't you the one who ridiculed using a blogger as a source?
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Old February 3rd, 2016, 11:28 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
Woman Came Back From the Dead After 17 Hours with No Measurable Brain Waves - Alex Santoso

"After Velma Thomas' heart stopped beating three times and more than 17 hours with no measurable brain waves, her family said their goodbyes and took her off life support.

Then something completely unexpected happened: she miraculously came back to life!"


Doctor Calls Near-Death Experience a 'Miracle'- ABC NEWS

"Velma Thomas' heart stopped beating three times -- and her doctors thought she was dead.

She was taken by ambulance to a local West Virginia hospital when her heart stopped after experiencing symptoms of a heart attack. For more than 17 hours, Thomas had no measurable brain waves, according to her doctors."
You have one example from 8 years ago with no way of verifying the story.

Was the equipment working properly? Was she hooked up to it properly? Were there conditions that might have given a false reading?

And even if all of these questions are answered to our satisfaction there may be explanations that we can't even think of to ask about.
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Old February 3rd, 2016, 12:10 PM   #18
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Woman Came Back From the Dead After 17 Hours with No Measurable Brain Waves - Alex Santoso •

"After Velma Thomas' heart stopped beating three times and more than 17 hours with no measurable brain waves, her family said their goodbyes and took her off life support.

Then something completely unexpected happened: she miraculously came back to life!"


Doctor Calls Near-Death Experience a 'Miracle'- ABC NEWS

"Velma Thomas' heart stopped beating three times -- and her doctors thought she was dead.

She was taken by ambulance to a local West Virginia hospital when her heart stopped after experiencing symptoms of a heart attack. For more than 17 hours, Thomas had no measurable brain waves, according to her doctors."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nwolfe35 View Post
You have one example from 8 years ago with no way of verifying the story.

Was the equipment working properly? Was she hooked up to it properly? Were there conditions that might have given a false reading?

And even if all of these questions are answered to our satisfaction there may be explanations that we can't even think of to ask about.
SCIENCE
THE FIRST FEW MINUTES AFTER DEATH
A THREE-YEAR STUDY WILL EXPLORE THE NATURE OF DEATH AND CONSCIOUSNESS


"According to Parnia, the study is important for two reasons. First, published studies have shown that people who undergo cardiac arrest can recall specific memories and demonstrate consciousness. Second, during cardiac arrest, there is no measurable brain activity. "If you combine these two sets of data together, it indicates a need to do a large study to determine: is this real or not? Can this really be going on?"

The point is - that part of my analogy is not beyond the realm of possibility

Last edited by Chuz Life; February 3rd, 2016 at 12:20 PM.
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Old February 3rd, 2016, 12:12 PM   #19
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AWARE Study Results Finally Published: Does Not Prove Life After Death | Mysterious Universe
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Old February 3rd, 2016, 05:06 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
The same can be said of the "Violinist" analogy but that hasn't kept it from being used in Abortion debates and discussions for the many years since it was first written. Has it.
i have been discussing abortion in various venues for many years, and i have never seen it before.

Quote:
I was trying find an analogy that closer approximates the risks and responsibilities of getting pregnant in a world where our laws have determined that life begins at conception.
who gives a damn what the laws say? life isnt a legal battle, its a biological one.

Quote:
That does not get to the reason for this analogy.
i cannot see the reason for the analogy other than you cannot answer my arguments for early term abortion.

Quote:
You see, in many abortion debates, the subject often comes up that women have the final say with regard to their autonomy. Pro-aborts will often claim that "even if" life beings at conception and even if the woman "invited" the child into her womb with her actions. . . the woman has the right (in their opinion) to change her mind.
which is an argument i dont think you have actually tried to counter.

Quote:
This analogy addresses that aspect in a way that the Violinist theory did not.
no it didnt, it creates a pseudo universe where nothing makes any sense.
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