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Old October 25th, 2011, 04:01 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by skrekk View Post
Bzzzzt! Wrong! Our secular government is entirely silent on the issue of gods, yours or anyone else's, and gives no respect to any god.




So where do all those "rights" come from?



An imaginary friend?
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Old October 25th, 2011, 04:02 PM   #32
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Oh my Gawd!!!
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Old October 25th, 2011, 04:05 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat' timestamp='1319579756' post='363889

[quote name='skrekk' timestamp='1319577936' post='363881']

[quote name='imaginethat' timestamp='1319577720' post='363879']

Well, if 5,999 people at a public event wanted to conduct a public prayer, and one person who'd contacted the Freedom From Religion folks decided to throw a hissy fit and file suit, that one person's intention would overrule the other 5,999. Fact.
Not a Fact.



If those 5,999 people want to pray together at a public event, they're free to do so. They just can't have state sponsorship or use state resources to do so.



And the only reason that one person had to contact an organization like the FFRF is because the state had been violating the constitution, not because the other 5,999 people were praying.
Your opinion, and one that you will impose on others. The lengths to which you will go? Having a prayer before a high school football game is "state sponsorship" and "violating the Constitution." Sure.



We can save each other's time by not debating this for the umpteenth time. No one's mind will be changed.

[/quote]

I guess the difference between us is that I see no problem with 5,999 people praying at a public school football game, while you see no problem when a state official leads that same prayer.



That's why I could never vote for Ron Paul - he doesn't see the problem either.

[/quote]



That's right. I see no problem with a state "official" leading a prayer before a public school football game. I would have a big problem with a state "official" telling people to vote D or R, or vote for candidate X, a big problem with that, just as I have a problem with state "officials" telling citizens they must buy a privately offered product.



But a prayer at a school football game because it "offends" the sensitivities of atheists?



The primary problem with atheists/secularists is their blindness to their beliefs, which share many similarities with religion, and their blindness to their imposing their beliefs upon those who don't share their beliefs.



The sword cuts both ways. If a public prayer runs counter to the beliefs of atheists, they are free not to participate. The Pledge of Allegiance runs counter to my beliefs. When it is recited, I choose not to participate as I did as a school board member, for seven years. I did not go on a campaign against reciting the Pledge, which the majority believes is right and proper. I chose not to participate.



Always, it is good to live and let live. Always, my rights end where yours begin, and vice versa. America isn't about conformity; America is about making free choices. When an atheist demands that his or her preference is the "rule of law," then that person actively seeks to deny others the right of free choice.



And you are a pretender skrekk. Your countless references to an "imaginary friend" clearly demonstrate that you believe your opinion is superior, and that it should, through the power of government, be imposed upon the deluded ... of which, you're not one.
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Old October 25th, 2011, 04:14 PM   #34
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That's right. I see no problem with a state "official" leading a prayer before a public school football game. I would have a big problem with a state "official" telling people to vote D or R, or vote for candidate X, a big problem with that, just as I have a problem with state "officials" telling citizens they must buy a privately offered product.



But a prayer at a school football game because it "offends" the sensitivities of atheists?



The primary problem with atheists/secularists is their blindness to their beliefs, which share many similarities with religion, and their blindness to their imposing their beliefs upon those who don't share their beliefs.
Actually it's not just atheists who are offended but our constitution, as well as the sensibilities of Jews, Muslims, Unitarians, Quakers and many Christians who think it improper to mix church and state. That's why the biggest organization advocating church-state separation and a ban on state-sponsored prayer is called "Americans United for Separation of Church and State", whose member organizations are primarily religious groups. Its director is a UCC minister, and its board of trustees has several ministers and rabbis.





Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
And you are pretender skrekk. Your countless references to an "imaginary friend" clearly demonstrate that you believe your opinion is superior, and that it should, through the power of government, be imposed upon the deluded ... of which, you're not one.
No, it's just a reminder that I believe in just one less imaginary friend than you do. Like me, you think that Odin, Zeus, Horus, Quetzalcoatl, etc are imaginary friends and the artifacts of myth.
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Old October 25th, 2011, 04:45 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by skrekk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat' timestamp='1319587536' post='363917

That's right. I see no problem with a state "official" leading a prayer before a public school football game. I would have a big problem with a state "official" telling people to vote D or R, or vote for candidate X, a big problem with that, just as I have a problem with state "officials" telling citizens they must buy a privately offered product.



But a prayer at a school football game because it "offends" the sensitivities of atheists?



The primary problem with atheists/secularists is their blindness to their beliefs, which share many similarities with religion, and their blindness to their imposing their beliefs upon those who don't share their beliefs.
Actually it's not just atheists who are offended but our constitution, as well as the sensibilities of Jews, Muslims, Unitarians, Quakers and many Christians who think it improper to mix church and state. That's why the biggest organization advocating church-state separation and a ban on state-sponsored prayer is called "Americans United for Separation of Church and State", whose member organizations are primarily religious groups. Its director is a UCC minister, and its board of trustees has several ministers and rabbis.





Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
And you are pretender skrekk. Your countless references to an "imaginary friend" clearly demonstrate that you believe your opinion is superior, and that it should, through the power of government, be imposed upon the deluded ... of which, you're not one.
No, it's just a reminder that I believe in just one less imaginary friend than you do. Like me, you think that Odin, Zeus, Horus, Quetzalcoatl, etc are imaginary friends and the artifacts of myth.


No, I have no first-hand knowledge of the veracity or lack of veracity regarding Odin, Zeus, Horus, Quetzalcoatl, or even the powerful god "etc."



But you are wrapped up tightly in your belief that you "know," to the point of being superior, disrespectful, and mocking of the beliefs of others. That's the difference between you and me. You, a self-proclaimed secularist, bring a religious "knowing" to your secularity. You know. You've no doubt that you know. Just a reminder....
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Old October 25th, 2011, 04:47 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by skrekk' timestamp='1319588088' post='363919

[quote name='imaginethat' timestamp='1319587536' post='363917']

That's right. I see no problem with a state "official" leading a prayer before a public school football game. I would have a big problem with a state "official" telling people to vote D or R, or vote for candidate X, a big problem with that, just as I have a problem with state "officials" telling citizens they must buy a privately offered product.



But a prayer at a school football game because it "offends" the sensitivities of atheists?



The primary problem with atheists/secularists is their blindness to their beliefs, which share many similarities with religion, and their blindness to their imposing their beliefs upon those who don't share their beliefs.
Actually it's not just atheists who are offended but our constitution, as well as the sensibilities of Jews, Muslims, Unitarians, Quakers and many Christians who think it improper to mix church and state. That's why the biggest organization advocating church-state separation and a ban on state-sponsored prayer is called "Americans United for Separation of Church and State", whose member organizations are primarily religious groups. Its director is a UCC minister, and its board of trustees has several ministers and rabbis.





Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
And you are pretender skrekk. Your countless references to an "imaginary friend" clearly demonstrate that you believe your opinion is superior, and that it should, through the power of government, be imposed upon the deluded ... of which, you're not one.
No, it's just a reminder that I believe in just one less imaginary friend than you do. Like me, you think that Odin, Zeus, Horus, Quetzalcoatl, etc are imaginary friends and the artifacts of myth.


No, I have no first-hand knowledge of the veracity or lack of veracity regarding Odin, Zeus, Horus, Quetzalcoatl, or even the powerful god "etc."



But you are wrapped up tightly in your belief that you "know," to the point of being superior and disrespectful and mocking of the beliefs of others. That's the difference between you and me. You, a self-proclaimed secularist, bring a religious "knowing" to your secularity. You know. You've no doubt that you know.

[/quote]





shriek has no arguments only antitheses.



His dog-in-the-manger attitude is reminiscent of a 5-year old whose been told he must go to bed
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Old October 25th, 2011, 05:03 PM   #37
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No, I have no first-hand knowledge of the veracity or lack of veracity regarding Odin, Zeus, Horus, Quetzalcoatl, or even the powerful god "etc."



But you are wrapped up tightly in your belief that you "know," to the point of being superior, disrespectful, and mocking of the beliefs of others. That's the difference between you and me. You, a self-proclaimed secularist, bring a religious "knowing" to your secularity. You know. You've no doubt that you know. Just a reminder....
It's very funny that you find offensive the descriptive (and accurate) phrase "imaginary friend" when it's used in a private forum like this, but you have no trouble when the state endorses your favorite prayer.



Jews have no more interest in hearing about the false prophet you call Baby Jeebus than atheists and polytheists need to be preached to about your imaginary friend Yahweh, or Wiccans need to have the state endorse the bronze age cult which has burned so many witches. There's a very good reason our founders crafted a secular constitution, and why many people of faith support the ban on state-endorsed prayer. A shame you don't get it.



Your faith wouldn't get mocked if you didn't stuff it down everyone's throats, and didn't use the hand of the state to do that.
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Old October 25th, 2011, 05:45 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat' timestamp='1319589910' post='363937

No, I have no first-hand knowledge of the veracity or lack of veracity regarding Odin, Zeus, Horus, Quetzalcoatl, or even the powerful god "etc."



But you are wrapped up tightly in your belief that you "know," to the point of being superior, disrespectful, and mocking of the beliefs of others. That's the difference between you and me. You, a self-proclaimed secularist, bring a religious "knowing" to your secularity. You know. You've no doubt that you know. Just a reminder....
It's very funny that you find offensive the descriptive (and accurate) phrase "imaginary friend" when it's used in a private forum like this, but you have no trouble when the state endorses your favorite prayer.



Jews have no more interest in hearing about the false prophet you call Baby Jeebus than atheists and polytheists need to be preached to about your imaginary friend Yahweh, or Wiccans need to have the state endorse the bronze age cult which has burned so many witches. There's a very good reason our founders crafted a secular constitution, and why many people of faith support the ban on state-endorsed prayer. A shame you don't get it.



Your faith wouldn't get mocked if you didn't stuff it down everyone's throats, and didn't use the hand of the state to do that.


Quick, give me an list of my "faith's" tenets. Not "Christian" faith, my faith.



Or is this something else that because of your superiority, you know?



You're as convinced in your knowing as anyone you put down. This is fact. It's not changed an iota in the year I've known you. It's not changing. In your opinion, you are superior, disrespectful, and a mocker.
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Old October 25th, 2011, 05:48 PM   #39
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No he isn't. He merely seeks the righteous achievement of full equality for all citizens, and no favoritism when it comes to religion when it is mixed with public institutions. That isn't any of the things that you are claiming.
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Old October 25th, 2011, 06:33 PM   #40
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I am always curious to know from where an atheist believes his or her rights come from. But I suppose that if the universe can spring from a void, human rights can spring from one as well. If one believes that in this natural world something came from nothing, with no natural evidence to back it, then one can justify almost anything to one's self. That principle extends to Constitutional interpretations as well. One will believe what one prefers to believe. If one prefers to believe the truth, one will believe the truth. If one prefers to believe one's preference of what the truth should be, one will believe that.



But just so that I am at least more fully informed as to the position of the atheist in such things as Constitutional interpretation, Shrekk, I hope that you will give me your Atheists interpretation of the following passage of the Constitution from Article VII, which states:



"Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth."



1. In the atheist's understanding of this passage, who is the 'Lord" (note in capital letters) to Whom Article VII refers?

2. According to Article VII, what would be the year in which the United States of America became independent?



And for the bonus round, just for kicks,

3. According to the Constitution, what rights as a United States citizen do you possess and from where did they originate? Please give me the Article and passage you reference.



Thanks,

Hank
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