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Old March 21st, 2012, 10:51 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by skrekk' timestamp='1332291869' post='390906

[quote name='imaginethat' timestamp='1332287010' post='390896']

[quote name='skrekk' timestamp='1332280143' post='390871'] [quote name='imaginethat' timestamp='1332274830' post='390851'] The claim that the SPLA in South Sudan is "equally brutal" as Kony or Museveni is fallacious.
Boy are you clueless on that issue - the SPLA is only now getting around to not using child soldiers, even though they've been promising for the last several years to end the practice: http://www.voanews.c...-142998905.html Apparently they've just been waiting long enough until those soldiers are no longer children.
Quote:
http://www.un.org/ch...lish/sudan.html Ongoing association of children within the ranks of SPLA Division 4 in Duar (Unity State), Division 3 in Wunyik (Northern Bahr el-Ghazal State), Division 5 in Mapel (Western Bahr el-Ghazal State), Division 7 in Upper Nile State, Division 2 in Eastern and Central Equatoria States and Division 8 in Jonglei State were noted in 2010. Further, 42 cases of active child recruitment by SPLA was also confirmed. It has been difficult to determine the exact numbers of children associated with SPLA, given that the children are subject to the constant movement of SPLA troops throughout southern Sudan. Further, in the Transitional Areas, 220 children associated with SPLA in Blue Nile State were verified and registered for demobilization in July, while 8 boys were confirmed to have been recruited by SPLA in Jaw (South Kordofan State) in November. More children are presumed to be present in the ranks of SLA in South Kordofan, although lack of access and restrictions imposed by the local authorities make it difficult to confirm or verify such allegations. Separately, 25 boys were recruited by the Joint Integrated Units (SPLA and Sudanese Armed Forces) in Wau (Western Bahr el-Ghazal State).
Quote:
http://www.westminst...s/terrorism.asp The New York Times has describing the SPLA as "brutal and predatory", stating that they "have behaved like an occupying army, killing, raping and pillaging" in southern Sudan, and calling SPLA leader John Garang one of Sudan's "pre-eminent war criminals". Eight US-based humanitarian organisations working in Sudan, including CARE, World Vision, Church World Service, Save the Children and the American Refugee Committee also publicly went on record to state that the SPLA has: "engaged for years in the most serious human rights abuses, including extrajudicial killings, beatings, arbitrary detention, slavery, etc." Human Rights Watch has additionally commented: "The SPLA has a history of gross abuses of human rights and has not made any effort to establish accountability. Its abuses today remain serious."
The SPLA also has a long history of using terrorism, not just through rape and the burning of villages, but also by shooting down civilian airliners.


Your first link doesn't mention Kony, which itself is incredible, and your second link is almost 12 years old. Regardless, this is obfuscation. No link has been established between IC and the SPLA.



Plus, like always, you cherry-pick and respond. Your dishonesty is for all to see.

[/quote]



Ummmmm.......I didn't claim any link between Kony and the SPLA (the SPLA has been fighting the LRA, which is why "Invisible Children" advocates arming the SPLA). The point was that your claim that the SPLA isn't equally brutal as the LRA is just ignorant.

[/quote]



Ummmmm.......I said: "No link has been established between IC and the SPLA."



When cherry-picking can't suit your position, you resort to replying to what wasn't said. Ummmmm, please address what I said.

[/quote]



We're getting far into the nit-picking here, but this is what I was responding to:

Quote:
Your first link doesn't mention Kony, which itself is incredible


My response should have been: "Well, duh......my first link was about the SPLA, not about Kony. That's why Kony wasn't mentioned."
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Old March 21st, 2012, 11:52 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skrekk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat' timestamp='1332297538' post='390910

[quote name='skrekk' timestamp='1332291869' post='390906']

[quote name='imaginethat' timestamp='1332287010' post='390896']

[quote name='skrekk' timestamp='1332280143' post='390871'] [quote name='imaginethat' timestamp='1332274830' post='390851'] The claim that the SPLA in South Sudan is "equally brutal" as Kony or Museveni is fallacious.
Boy are you clueless on that issue - the SPLA is only now getting around to not using child soldiers, even though they've been promising for the last several years to end the practice: http://www.voanews.c...-142998905.html Apparently they've just been waiting long enough until those soldiers are no longer children.
Quote:
http://www.un.org/ch...lish/sudan.html Ongoing association of children within the ranks of SPLA Division 4 in Duar (Unity State), Division 3 in Wunyik (Northern Bahr el-Ghazal State), Division 5 in Mapel (Western Bahr el-Ghazal State), Division 7 in Upper Nile State, Division 2 in Eastern and Central Equatoria States and Division 8 in Jonglei State were noted in 2010. Further, 42 cases of active child recruitment by SPLA was also confirmed. It has been difficult to determine the exact numbers of children associated with SPLA, given that the children are subject to the constant movement of SPLA troops throughout southern Sudan. Further, in the Transitional Areas, 220 children associated with SPLA in Blue Nile State were verified and registered for demobilization in July, while 8 boys were confirmed to have been recruited by SPLA in Jaw (South Kordofan State) in November. More children are presumed to be present in the ranks of SLA in South Kordofan, although lack of access and restrictions imposed by the local authorities make it difficult to confirm or verify such allegations. Separately, 25 boys were recruited by the Joint Integrated Units (SPLA and Sudanese Armed Forces) in Wau (Western Bahr el-Ghazal State).
Quote:
http://www.westminst...s/terrorism.asp The New York Times has describing the SPLA as "brutal and predatory", stating that they "have behaved like an occupying army, killing, raping and pillaging" in southern Sudan, and calling SPLA leader John Garang one of Sudan's "pre-eminent war criminals". Eight US-based humanitarian organisations working in Sudan, including CARE, World Vision, Church World Service, Save the Children and the American Refugee Committee also publicly went on record to state that the SPLA has: "engaged for years in the most serious human rights abuses, including extrajudicial killings, beatings, arbitrary detention, slavery, etc." Human Rights Watch has additionally commented: "The SPLA has a history of gross abuses of human rights and has not made any effort to establish accountability. Its abuses today remain serious."
The SPLA also has a long history of using terrorism, not just through rape and the burning of villages, but also by shooting down civilian airliners.


Your first link doesn't mention Kony, which itself is incredible, and your second link is almost 12 years old. Regardless, this is obfuscation. No link has been established between IC and the SPLA.



Plus, like always, you cherry-pick and respond. Your dishonesty is for all to see.

[/quote]



Ummmmm.......I didn't claim any link between Kony and the SPLA (the SPLA has been fighting the LRA, which is why "Invisible Children" advocates arming the SPLA). The point was that your claim that the SPLA isn't equally brutal as the LRA is just ignorant.

[/quote]



Ummmmm.......I said: "No link has been established between IC and the SPLA."



When cherry-picking can't suit your position, you resort to replying to what wasn't said. Ummmmm, please address what I said.

[/quote]



We're getting far into the nit-picking here, but this is what I was responding to:

Quote:
Your first link doesn't mention Kony, which itself is incredible


My response should have been: "Well, duh......my first link was about the SPLA, not about Kony. That's why Kony wasn't mentioned."

[/quote]



You could have said that, but you cherry-picked your own link. To wit:



Quote:
The number of documented cases of child recruitment and use in 2010 decreased compared to 2009; however, the collection of accurate data continued to be seriously hampered by insecurity and fear of reprisals, lack of access to non government controlled areas, and movement restrictions imposed by the Government. In addition, difficulty in recording new splinter groups, unclear lines of command, extremely mobile groups, renewed clashes between Government forces and armed groups, especially in the last quarter of 2010, also contributed to underreporting. Notwithstanding these challenges, 113 children were confirmed to have been recruited by the following armed forces and groups: Armed Movement of Liberals and Reform (splinter group of JEM and SLA/Abdul Wahid), Border Intelligence Forces, Chadian armed opposition groups, community policing forces, police forces, Popular Defence Forces, SLA/Abu Gasim, SLA/Historical Leadership (splinter group of SLA/Abdul Wahid), SLA/Abdul Wahid, Sudanese Armed Forces and unknown armed groups. In addition, credible allegations of recruitment and use of children involving more than 150 children by several armed groups in northern and southern Darfur, including SLA/Minni Minawi, SLA/Abdul Wahid, SLA/Historical Leadership, JEM, Central Reserve Police, Border Intelligence Forces, and Chadian armed opposition groups were received by the United Nations. Verification of these cases is ongoing.


Evidently, everybody is recruiting children. But, this isn't the point you made. You said the IC "supports" Museveni and the NRA as well as some mysterious link to the SPLA. It's pure innuendo.
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Old April 5th, 2012, 09:24 AM   #53
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It looks like there are ties between Invisible Children and The Family (which is behind the Kill the Gays bill):

http://www.talk2acti...he_Family_quot_



The report is rather confusing, but it seems to boil down to IC and The Family traveling in the same evangelical circles, having intertwined business interests, and using some of the same people as their representatives and program coordinators in Uganda. Given that the ex-pat community in Uganda is small, some of those links are to be expected.
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