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Old November 27th, 2013, 03:46 PM   #11
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Not in ANY DOCUMENT OR HISTORICAL DECREE...OR STATE CONSTITUTION...was any separation mentions. ONLY in a letter to the Danbury Baptists.

This proclamation....was religious. It was religiously referring to Christianity.
Had there been separation....this couldn't have been said at that time....as it never would be said today.
Really? ONLY in the Jefferson letter is "separation" mentioned?

"Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and & Gov't in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history" - James Madison, Detached Memoranda

"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together." - James Madison, Letter to Edward Livingston, 1822

"I must admit moreover that it may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to a usurpation on one side or the other or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them will be best guarded against by entire abstinence of the government from interference in any way whatever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order and protecting each sect against trespasses on its legal rights by others." - James Madison, Letter Rev. Jasper Adams, Spring 1832
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Old November 27th, 2013, 03:51 PM   #12
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Oh, that's only James Madison, pfffft a big nobody when it comes to deciding how to govern this nation. LOL
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Old November 27th, 2013, 04:09 PM   #13
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Oh, that's only James Madison, pfffft a big nobody when it comes to deciding how to govern this nation. LOL
Are you not going to elaborate on Madison's influence on the establishment clause, which is the subject of this post? You know, the documentation that links the establishment clause and Madison's governing of the nation.
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Old November 27th, 2013, 04:17 PM   #14
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Are you not going to elaborate on Madison's influence on the establishment clause, which is the subject of this post? You know, the documentation that links the establishment clause and Madison's governing of the nation.
Gee...I wonder how Madison became known as the "Father of the Constitution"?

I guess that just may be a mystery that we will never solve.....
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Old November 27th, 2013, 04:34 PM   #15
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Thanksgiving Proclamation
President George Washington
City of New York, October 3, 1789

Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor, and Whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me "to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness."

Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be. That we may then all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble thanks, for his kind care and protection of the People of this country previous to their becoming a Nation, for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of his providence, which we experienced in the course and conclusion of the late war, for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty, which we have since enjoyed, for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national One now lately instituted, for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge and in general for all the great and various favors which he hath been pleased to confer upon us.

And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions, to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually, to render our national government a blessing to all the People, by constantly being a government of wise, just and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed, to protect and guide all Sovereigns and Nations (especially such as have shown kindness unto us) and to bless them with good government, peace, and concord. To promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the encrease of science among them and Us, and generally to grant unto all Mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best."

Where is the separation of church and state in Washington's proclamation? He mentions....
Almighty God- two times
To obey HIS (God) WILL, HIS BENEFITS, HIS FAVOR
Great and Glorious Being
great Lord and Ruler of Nations
practice of true religion

Lord...is Christ, True religion is Christianity.


AND BOTH HOUSES OF CONGRESS AGREED


If this is not what some liberals will say it is...then could today this sort of thing come from the White House?
ok, but what do you think?

i dont want to discuss what the founding fathers might or might not have thought, or what they might or might not have wanted for america.

what do YOU think? do you think there should be a separation of church and state, or do you think america should adopt a christian government that uses christian ideology as a basis for law?
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Old November 27th, 2013, 04:55 PM   #16
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Gee...I wonder how Madison became known as the "Father of the Constitution"?

I guess that just may be a mystery that we will never solve.....
Madison spent years researching historical governments and where they failed and succeeded, studied and was influenced by philosophers such as Locke, Montesquieu, Hobbes, etc, and showed up to the Continental Congress, which was only in session to discuss amending the Articles of Confederation, and proposed the idea of creating a new Constitution. He had most of it written, and wrote the original draft of the twelve amendments that became the ten amendments of the Bill of Rights. Thus, the title "Father of the Constitution."

The final draft of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights that were ratified are different than Madison's original versions, primarily the curtailment of the role and power of the federal government in relation to the states.
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Old November 27th, 2013, 05:09 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by azchurchmouse View Post
Not in ANY DOCUMENT OR HISTORICAL DECREE...OR STATE CONSTITUTION...was any separation mentions. ONLY in a letter to the Danbury Baptists.

This proclamation....was religious. It was religiously referring to Christianity.
Had there been separation....this couldn't have been said at that time....as it never would be said today.
I seem to remember someone else mentioning the separation of church and state....I wonder who that was?

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Old November 27th, 2013, 05:11 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Jimmyb View Post
Madison spent years researching historical governments and where they failed and succeeded, studied and was influenced by philosophers such as Locke, Montesquieu, Hobbes, etc, and showed up to the Continental Congress, which was only in session to discuss amending the Articles of Confederation, and proposed the idea of creating a new Constitution. He had most of it written, and wrote the original draft of the twelve amendments that became the ten amendments of the Bill of Rights. Thus, the title "Father of the Constitution."

The final draft of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights that were ratified are different than Madison's original versions, primarily the curtailment of the role and power of the federal government in relation to the states.
And AFTER that Constitution was ratified, "The Father of the Constitution" believed that it called for a separation of church and state.....

I guess Madison just didn't know what he was talking about.....
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Old November 27th, 2013, 05:20 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Nwolfe35 View Post
And AFTER that Constitution was ratified, "The Father of the Constitution" believed that it called for a separation of church and state.....

I guess Madison just didn't know what he was talking about.....
Really? I must have missed that during Madison's administration. Could you provide his influence on the establishment clause while he was president?

I provided you with Madison's original draft of the establishment clause, then the eight versions of it until a final version was sent to the states, so could you provide Madison's influence on the established clause after the initial draft.

I may have the been confused about how the Constitution and Bill of Rights were created, and the declared intent of the men who debated and created the final versions. Are you saying that this is not the intent of the ratified versions of each? Are you saying that the intent of the establishment clause is what Madison originally submitted, or wrote in a letter thirty or forty years later? Is the actual intent, and not the 55 delegates, the Congress, and the states?
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Old November 27th, 2013, 07:33 PM   #20
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Which era do you want to make your argument? Today, it would be a violation of the establishment clause under the incorporation doctrine and the destructive and anti-constitutional doctrine of stare decisis as applied to judicial review, so cannot happen; circa 1787, unless they were Christian, they could not run for election, so could not have happened.
ok, i will ask you too.

what do you think? not what do you think the founding fathers thought, what do YOU think, what is YOUR opinion?

do you think there should be a separation of powers between church and state?
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