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Old November 27th, 2013, 06:32 AM   #1
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Church and State ?

Thanksgiving Proclamation
President George Washington
City of New York, October 3, 1789

Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor, and Whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me "to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness."

Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be. That we may then all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble thanks, for his kind care and protection of the People of this country previous to their becoming a Nation, for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of his providence, which we experienced in the course and conclusion of the late war, for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty, which we have since enjoyed, for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national One now lately instituted, for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge and in general for all the great and various favors which he hath been pleased to confer upon us.

And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions, to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually, to render our national government a blessing to all the People, by constantly being a government of wise, just and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed, to protect and guide all Sovereigns and Nations (especially such as have shown kindness unto us) and to bless them with good government, peace, and concord. To promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the encrease of science among them and Us, and generally to grant unto all Mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best."

Where is the separation of church and state in Washington's proclamation? He mentions....
Almighty God- two times
To obey HIS (God) WILL, HIS BENEFITS, HIS FAVOR
Great and Glorious Being
great Lord and Ruler of Nations
practice of true religion

Lord...is Christ, True religion is Christianity.


AND BOTH HOUSES OF CONGRESS AGREED


If this is not what some liberals will say it is...then could today this sort of thing come from the White House?
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Old November 27th, 2013, 06:36 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azchurchmouse View Post
Thanksgiving Proclamation
President George Washington
City of New York, October 3, 1789

Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor, and Whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me "to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness."

Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be. That we may then all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble thanks, for his kind care and protection of the People of this country previous to their becoming a Nation, for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of his providence, which we experienced in the course and conclusion of the late war, for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty, which we have since enjoyed, for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national One now lately instituted, for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge and in general for all the great and various favors which he hath been pleased to confer upon us.

And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions, to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually, to render our national government a blessing to all the People, by constantly being a government of wise, just and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed, to protect and guide all Sovereigns and Nations (especially such as have shown kindness unto us) and to bless them with good government, peace, and concord. To promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the encrease of science among them and Us, and generally to grant unto all Mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best."

Where is the separation of church and state in Washington's proclamation? He mentions....
Almighty God- two times
To obey HIS (God) WILL, HIS BENEFITS, HIS FAVOR
Great and Glorious Being
great Lord and Ruler of Nations
practice of true religion

Lord...is Christ, True religion is Christianity.


AND BOTH HOUSES OF CONGRESS AGREED


If this is not what some liberals will say it is...then could today this sort of thing come from the White House?
This pronouncement came at a time when people were still owned as property, women could not vote and being gay was still a crime.

The Founding Fathers were men, not saints, and by no means perfect.

They set up a system that guaranteed that each person would be free to believe what they wanted and would be able to practice those beliefs free of government harassment. The only way to guarantee that would be to guarantee that religion did not play a part in our legislative decisions.

Did they fully practice what they had written? No.

Does that mean we should abandon those ideals and cease to strive towards them? Also no.
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Old November 27th, 2013, 06:44 AM   #3
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This pronouncement came at a time when people were still owned as property, women could not vote and being gay was still a crime.

The Founding Fathers were men, not saints, and by no means perfect.

They set up a system that guaranteed that each person would be free to believe what they wanted and would be able to practice those beliefs free of government harassment. The only way to guarantee that would be to guarantee that religion did not play a part in our legislative decisions.

Did they fully practice what they had written? No.

Does that mean we should abandon those ideals and cease to strive towards them? Also no.
I am not talking about slavery or woman's rights. I am talking about a separation that did not ever exist. This is not about the practice of it...but the fact it was said.

Where is the separation? Could this come from Washington today?
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Old November 27th, 2013, 06:48 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by azchurchmouse View Post
I am not talking about slavery or woman's rights. I am talking about a separation that did not ever exist. This is not about the practice of it...but the fact it was said.

Where is the separation? Could this come from Washington today?
The separation has always been there. Madison, Jefferson, Paine and a number of other Founding Fathers knew that a mixture of church and state was a bad idea.

That the separation was not closely observed by people like Washington doesn't change the fact that it was there.

The DOI states that "ALL men are created equal"...that didn't stop people from owning blacks.....or prohibiting women from voting.
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Old November 27th, 2013, 08:29 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by azchurchmouse View Post
I am not talking about slavery or woman's rights. I am talking about a separation that did not ever exist. This is not about the practice of it...but the fact it was said.

Where is the separation? Could this come from Washington today?
So if a couple million Muslims moved into your area, got themselves elected to the school boards, city councils, even the state legislature. Then with their new found power, started passing laws more in line with Islam, maybe even sharia law, you would be perfectly OK with that ???

You'd be OK with your children being forced to pray to Allah ? OK with all your holidays being changed to those on the Muslim calendar ?? OK with the schools being required to have halal foods ?

What you and those like you fail to understand is that if we do away with the separation of church and state, the state WILL decide your religion for you !!!

Don't believe me ?? Look at any of the middle east countries. The majority of the violence is over which version of Islam is going to rule the country and how strict it will be !!!
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Old November 27th, 2013, 08:33 AM   #6
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I'm afraid you're talking too much sense Bubba......LOL
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Old November 27th, 2013, 08:56 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbaJones View Post
So if a couple million Muslims moved into your area, got themselves elected to the school boards, city councils, even the state legislature. Then with their new found power, started passing laws more in line with Islam, maybe even sharia law, you would be perfectly OK with that ???

You'd be OK with your children being forced to pray to Allah ? OK with all your holidays being changed to those on the Muslim calendar ?? OK with the schools being required to have halal foods ?

What you and those like you fail to understand is that if we do away with the separation of church and state, the state WILL decide your religion for you !!!

Don't believe me ?? Look at any of the middle east countries. The majority of the violence is over which version of Islam is going to rule the country and how strict it will be !!!
Which era do you want to make your argument? Today, it would be a violation of the establishment clause under the incorporation doctrine and the destructive and anti-constitutional doctrine of stare decisis as applied to judicial review, so cannot happen; circa 1787, unless they were Christian, they could not run for election, so could not have happened.
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Old November 27th, 2013, 09:13 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nwolfe35 View Post
The separation has always been there. Madison, Jefferson, Paine and a number of other Founding Fathers knew that a mixture of church and state was a bad idea.

That the separation was not closely observed by people like Washington doesn't change the fact that it was there.

The DOI states that "ALL men are created equal"...that didn't stop people from owning blacks.....or prohibiting women from voting.
The establishment clause, with its intent of not establishing a national religion, was closely adhered by the founders. "Separation" was not there, was never intended, and that is why the men who wrote the clause did what they did; a 20th century version of the intent of the establishment clause has no relation to Washington, et alia and their actions.
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Old November 27th, 2013, 10:16 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nwolfe35 View Post
The separation has always been there. Madison, Jefferson, Paine and a number of other Founding Fathers knew that a mixture of church and state was a bad idea.

That the separation was not closely observed by people like Washington doesn't change the fact that it was there.

The DOI states that "ALL men are created equal"...that didn't stop people from owning blacks.....or prohibiting women from voting.
Not in ANY DOCUMENT OR HISTORICAL DECREE...OR STATE CONSTITUTION...was any separation mentions. ONLY in a letter to the Danbury Baptists.

This proclamation....was religious. It was religiously referring to Christianity.
Had there been separation....this couldn't have been said at that time....as it never would be said today.
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Old November 27th, 2013, 02:25 PM   #10
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Which era do you want to make your argument? Today, it would be a violation of the establishment clause under the incorporation doctrine and the destructive and anti-constitutional doctrine of stare decisis as applied to judicial review, so cannot happen; circa 1787, unless they were Christian, they could not run for election, so could not have happened.
Irrelevant. I was asking if AZM would be OK, completely comfortable If it happened. I strongly suspect NOT. I'm willing to bet that if they tried our little rodent would be filing a law suit yesterday. Making sure those evil Muslims were keeping their religion OUT of our government.

In other words invoking that very separation !!
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