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Old February 26th, 2017, 10:47 AM   #61
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juststoneman is correct. The changing of the meaning of Socialism is rampant on the left. It is like watching a great used car salesman. I miss Fayt and how she would start rattling about candy bars and road signs. She would star getting out graphs trying to explain how everything the government does is socialism.
Some components of every government on earth is "socialistic". There are degrees. When the term socialist is used, it implies total government ownership of production.

Sanders calling himself a socialist is just informing people that he believes in a greater degree of government involvement than many. But he has never advocated true socialism as in its definition.

Look at all the regulations various GOP governments have passed. They are socialistic too. And not even in a lesser degree, just in different areas.

The way the term is used in US politics is meaningless. It is very much a spectrum rather than a yes/no situation.
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Old February 26th, 2017, 10:52 AM   #62
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Some components of every government on earth is "socialistic". There are degrees. When the term socialist is used, it implies total government ownership of production.

Sanders calling himself a socialist is just informing people that he believes in a greater degree of government involvement than many. But he has never advocated true socialism as in its definition.

Look at all the regulations various GOP governments have passed. They are socialistic too. And not even in a lesser degree, just in different areas.

The way the term is used in US politics is meaningless. It is very much a spectrum rather than a yes/no situation.
Oh, so now you are back to socialism lite. No, RNG. Building a road with tax dollars is not socialism. You did not steal the means of production. You took tax dollars, from capitalist wages, and it was used to build roads or infrastructure to protect capitalist wages. That is not socialism. Nor is the police or the fireman. Merely labeling things socialism does not make it so. Socialistic..thats cute
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Old February 26th, 2017, 10:54 AM   #63
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Oh, so now you are back to socialism lite.
I'm not back to anything. I'm fighting against stupid labels that assume a yes/no situation where it doesn't exist.

Having government paid police and fire services and military is socialism therefore cops and firemen and soldiers must be evil.
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Old February 26th, 2017, 10:55 AM   #64
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Yes of course Democrats are responsible for continuing slavery and of course Republicans have always been abolitionists and for emancipation of black slaves.

Yes this absolute truth.
Look up "Southern Strategy" and get a clue about how political parties shape and shift their policies for political advantage. Republicans had never been interested in extending full civil rights to blacks..let alone interfering in the South, and they saw a huge opportunity when Johnson had to cave to keep liberals and progressives onside in the Democratic Party and passed the Civil Rights Act.

Give credit to the GOP for understanding that southern whites on average had much greater economic and political power than blacks, and all that was needed was a few well placed, tactical dogwhistle messages to get them to migrate over and make the Party of Lincoln - Lincoln's Party in name only! This is how party politics is played all over the world, not just in the US.

*note that Johnson in his own private memoirs, was troubled by how hard this choice was for him, and that it would lose the south for the Democrats for two or three generations!
*and also bear in mind that getting the Civil Rights Act was just half of what MLK wanted.

Johnson made a start on the second half:"The War on Poverty" programs, but had also ramped up the War on Vietnam and couldn't afford both...so Poverty started getting underfunded and scaled back even while Johnson was in office! Nixon continued that attrition, but the results have been an almost completely unspoken predicament ever since: a great economic divide between a minority of African Americans with the economic resources to take advantage of the new rights and freedoms to: move into better neighborhoods, start and expand businesses, get their children into the best colleges and universities etc.....while the black underclass more or less stayed in place, and with few and brief events, has mostly been divided, ignored and kept out of the political process entirely.

And that suppression of the black economic underclass has largely been facilitated by the Black Ruling Class and their middle class advocates..but I doubt any Republican has a clue about how this works, because their racist white identity politics and turn towards ruthless libertarian economic policies, keeps the door shut from the other side! I mentioned at least one other place that Black America has a distinct economic divide that's at least as large as the general growing class disparities..but it's rare opportunities to find any writers or advocates willing to comment on this growing gap and divide in thinking between the two.

In this last five years, this is about the only story on this growing economic divide, but this black business and marketing site may allow a writer to post the story..but don't expect to find any blame being handed out to the black elites....safe to say that it's posted as a warning sign to that same black elite class/not those blacks in the growing demographic being left behind:
The Black Elite: A Look Inside Black America’s Widening Wealth Gap


As high earning black households make income gains faster than other groups, it’s interesting to note the wealth dynamics taking place within the black community and the widening wealth gap between the ‘black elite,’ and other African Americans.

[Related: Why Women Should Save Money Differently Than Men]

A study by Credit Suisse Research, and The Heller School for Social Policy and Management at Brandeis University found that:

The top 10% of African Americans accounted for 67% of wealth held by all African Americans
Compare that to the top 10% of white Americans who account for 51% of that group’s wealth

The study also found that the top 5% of African Americans—those with a median net worth of $739,000, are pulling away from blacks and other groups and are also:

47 times greater than the median wealth for all African Americans
6 times greater than the median for white households

Top earners in the black community also distinguish themselves when it comes to education. “Higher income and higher net worth African American families have been still able and willing to invest in education to a higher extent than the equivalent segments of the white American population,” say study researchers.

The Black Elite: A Look Inside Black America?s Widening Wealth Gap

As education becomes priced more and more out of range, it shouldn't come as a surprise that the gap just keeps growing and growing under this system...just like it does for the general population!

Very few journalists or analysts will go in deeper and hand out needed criticism of the black political class and how they run on mostly identity issues and symbolism/but mostly fail to fight for their constituents..and often work directly against their own communities..but rarely face criticism or are challenged for it...except in deeply marginalized black commentary:

Black Misleadership Class: High-Speed Sell-Outs | Black Agenda Report ...specifically here, Glenn Ford is attacking the members of the Black Congressional Caucus for taking the money and selling out their communities with their acceptance and advocacy for abolishing net neutrality. Ford is not going to get any interviews from mainstream liberal media, corporate black media, rightwing media, or even the liberal advocates of net neutrality, who are cowed by having the quick charge of racism thrown at them if they go after any black leaders other than token sellouts in the GOP! He's stuck talking to the marginalized indy media on the fringes, to argue his points.

So, what black leaders are able to get away with, time and time again, is playing the opposite side of the identity politics game. We know about the weathy, almost completely white ownership class, who make their appeals to the fears of White America and shared hostility to blacks | but the opposite side of course, is to make facile claims to being in the same boat as blacks in poverty and claim common persecution from 'the man!' Even though they can buy their way out of most discrimination and even abuses from aggressive policing unavailable to those with lower incomes.

But, at some point, these identity politics games played by the wealthy powerful few, stop working as larger and larger numbers of young people - finding their debts increasing, their wages stagnating, and no reasonable prospects of achieving their goals...aside from the faint hope of a big lottery win...start paying attention and asking tough questions about things they've mostly been ignoring and too busy to pay attention to. This is the great fear of all ownership classes...whether the minor ones, like the editors of a small black business and marketing site, or the big fish - like David Rockefeller..who we're told is trying to get it through to his younger VIP Club members that their continued wealth and extravagance depends on key support from governments and can be undone by unrest...whether it ends in the less common popular uprising, or the more common fascist takeover, when the guys with the guns decide to stop taking orders from the ones with piles of money but no means to enforce their control of the wealth directly!
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Last edited by right to left; February 26th, 2017 at 10:58 AM.
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Old February 26th, 2017, 11:00 AM   #65
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I'm not back to anything. I'm fighting against stupid labels that assume a yes/no situation where it doesn't exist.

Having government paid police and fire services and military is socialism therefore cops and firemen and soldiers must be evil.
That is not socialism at all. Where is the means of production being seized with police and firemen?..ok civil forfeiture with the police..maybe
The Military is just that. Its not an economic system. It is a service that people choose to be a part of that comes with pay. And, this is the kicker, not only is none of that not seizing the means of production, it is in fact being paid for by a capitalist means of production.
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Old February 26th, 2017, 11:03 AM   #66
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juststoneman is correct. The changing of the meaning of Socialism is rampant on the left. It is like watching a great used car salesman. I miss Fayt and how she would start rattling about candy bars and road signs. She would star getting out graphs trying to explain how everything the government does is socialism.
You're ignoring all the redefinitions of liberalism and conservatism over the years also.
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Old February 26th, 2017, 11:04 AM   #67
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You're ignoring all the redefinitions of liberalism and conservatism over the years also.
Nope, I was just discussing Socialism
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Old February 26th, 2017, 11:20 AM   #68
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The Fed is not a government bank! Not really! Look it up, and note that..after you wade through the claptrap about public/private partnership, the 12 Federal Reserve Banks around the USA are made up of members..who are in fact the largest private chartered banks. And since the New York Federal Reserve is the largest of the 12, that's the one that counts!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federa...m#Central_bank

The members of the New York Fed are the tail that wag the dog, and tell incoming presidents of either party, who to stock their financial cabinet posts with.....invariably, appointees from Goldman-Sachs or Citigroup or JPMorgan, and reward themselves with free money thru QE and loan most of it back to the Government at interest. They're literally charging the Government for using their own money!


You answered your own question. You and I agree on a lot of these things just not the end game. I get socialism I think that if it was voluntary and on a small scale it would be successful. It is the forced part that is and will be its doom.
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Old February 26th, 2017, 11:23 AM   #69
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That is not socialism at all. Where is the means of production being seized with police and firemen?..ok civil forfeiture with the police..maybe
The Military is just that. Its not an economic system. It is a service that people choose to be a part of that comes with pay. And, this is the kicker, not only is none of that not seizing the means of production, it is in fact being paid for by a capitalist means of production.
So all service workers should be government employees?

Where would you put for profit prison systems vs government run prisons?
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Old February 26th, 2017, 02:46 PM   #70
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So all service workers should be government employees?

Where would you put for profit prison systems vs government run prisons?
why would I put them anywhere? If you use a capitalist economy to fund a government service through a tax, that in and among it self is not seizing the means of production. Its that simple. What is so hard about this?

But, interestingly enough, the only profit jail I am personally familiar with is the TRI_County jail in Pulaski Illinois, which is a co-op formed by three county governments.
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