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Old May 3rd, 2017, 10:28 AM   #31
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Old May 3rd, 2017, 10:46 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
Did I say "fiscally responsible"?
No.

Do you understand the difference between DEFICIT (what I actually said) and DEBT?
He reduced the deficit. That's what was done. That's a fact.
Reagan? Bush Sr? Bush Jr? INCREASED the deficit. That's a fact.



And if you take our government's payments out for Bush's projects that cost us TRILLIONS, how much is left?

And when Trump tops these deficit numbers, are you going to even care?
In a given year shouldn't the deficit/surplus be equal to the change in the federal debt?

The national debt has decreased by $100 billion since Trump took office.
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Old May 3rd, 2017, 10:58 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
Did I say "fiscally responsible"?
No.

Do you understand the difference between DEFICIT (what I actually said) and DEBT?
He reduced the deficit. That's what was done. That's a fact.
Reagan? Bush Sr? Bush Jr? INCREASED the deficit. That's a fact.



And if you take our government's payments out for Bush's projects that cost us TRILLIONS, how much is left?

And when Trump tops these deficit numbers, are you going to even care?
Your chart is rather entertaining.

It shows the GWB tax cuts as a big contributor to deficits through 2019, but the GWB tax cuts expired in 2010.


It charges GWB for the spike in war spending, when the spike was due to Obama's failed surge in Afghanistan.
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Old May 3rd, 2017, 03:58 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
In a given year shouldn't the deficit/surplus be equal to the change in the federal debt?
Are you having difficulty with the fact that Obama decreased the deficit during his presidency?
Are you having difficulty with the fact that Reagan / Bush Sr / Bush Jr INCREASED the deficit during their presidency?

Or are your responses just an obvious attempt to ignore those simple facts?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
The national debt has decreased by $100 billion since Trump took office.

Are you one of those right-wingers who want to try to give Trump credit for that ...
... when he hasn't passed any budget, thus shouldn't get any credit (nor blame) for a deficit / surplus situation that he never contributed to in the first place???


Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine
Your chart is rather entertaining.
It shows the GWB tax cuts as a big contributor to deficits through 2019, but the GWB tax cuts expired in 2010.
And there's a whole history involved in that too. Obama was interested in only extending PART of those tax cuts, but Repubs blocked that effort.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine
It charges GWB for the spike in war spending, when the spike was due to Obama's failed surge in Afghanistan.
I welcome you to document your claim regarding the cost of Obama's failed surge...
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Old May 4th, 2017, 04:07 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
Are you having difficulty with the fact that Obama decreased the deficit during his presidency?
Are you having difficulty with the fact that Reagan / Bush Sr / Bush Jr INCREASED the deficit during their presidency?

Or are your responses just an obvious attempt to ignore those simple facts?




Are you one of those right-wingers who want to try to give Trump credit for that ...
... when he hasn't passed any budget, thus shouldn't get any credit (nor blame) for a deficit / surplus situation that he never contributed to in the first place???



And there's a whole history involved in that too. Obama was interested in only extending PART of those tax cuts, but Repubs blocked that effort.




I welcome you to document your claim regarding the cost of Obama's failed surge...
Obama didn't reduce the deficit. No POTUS in history ever had a trillion dollar deficit. Obama added more to the national debt than Reagan, GHWB, and GWB combined. The increase in the national debt is the sum of the Obama deficits. In 2016 we saw a $1.4 trillion increase in the national debt, the third largest in history. Democrats had control of the Senate, House and White House in 2010 when they resurrected the expired GWB tax cuts and extended them. Obama signed to make most of them permanent in 2012.

https://austincountynewsonline.com/u...rgest-history/

Quote:
The United States government closed out the 2016 fiscal year that ended a few days ago on Friday September 30th with a debt level of $19,573,444,713,936.79. That’s an increase of $1,422,827,047,452.46 over last year’s fiscal year close.

The Afghan Surge Is Over | Foreign Policy

Obama's failed surge cost thousands of US lives and hundreds of billions of taxpayer money.
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Old May 4th, 2017, 09:11 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Obama didn't reduce the deficit.
Yes. He did.
It boggles my mind that somebody would actually try to lie about this point.
Also, some economists we consulted pointed out that the 2009 fiscal year was Obama’s first year in office, and so not necessarily a good starting point since he had little control over the spending in that year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
No POTUS in history ever had a trillion dollar deficit.
This is completely irrelevant to the fact that he did reduce the deficit.
And he couldn't help the crap Bush dumped him with.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Obama added more to the national debt than Reagan, GHWB, and GWB combined.
No, no, no, no...
We've already been over this. Don't backtrack now.
That graph helps document what Bush left him and what Obama ADDED.

So the real question to you is this.
DOCUMENT what programs (and their costs) that Obama implemented that ADDED to the national deficit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
The increase in the national debt is the sum of the Obama deficits. In 2016 we saw a $1.4 trillion increase in the national debt, the third largest in history. Democrats had control of the Senate, House and White House in 2010 when they resurrected the expired GWB tax cuts and extended them. Obama signed to make most of them permanent in 2012.
https://austincountynewsonline.com/u...rgest-history/

I have no idea who "AustinCountyNewsOnline" is and I have no idea why they made up data where they got their data.
Let's talk a real source. The CBO...
CBO estimates that the federal budget deficit in 2016 will be $544 billion...
Don't throw out crap from nobody sites that gives NO citation for the numbers it claims.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
The Afghan Surge Is Over | Foreign Policy
Obama's failed surge cost thousands of US lives and hundreds of billions of taxpayer money.
Your own source calls you a liar.
From your article:
It costs $1 million to keep one American service member in Afghanistan for a year. That meant the annual bill for the war last year was about $100 billion.
And note. That web-site DOES NOT differentiate between the cost of occupation WITHOUT the surge as compared WITH the surge.
THAT is what you were challenged to document.

So no. Obama did not add "hundreds of billions of taxpayer money" to the deficit when he chose to implement the surge.
Thank you for disproving your own claim.
Thanks from RNG

Last edited by foundit66; May 4th, 2017 at 09:15 AM.
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Old May 4th, 2017, 09:25 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
Yes. He did.
It boggles my mind that somebody would actually try to lie about this point.
Also, some economists we consulted pointed out that the 2009 fiscal year was Obama’s first year in office, and so not necessarily a good starting point since he had little control over the spending in that year.

This is completely irrelevant to the fact that he did reduce the deficit.
And he couldn't help the crap Bush dumped him with.



No, no, no, no...
We've already been over this. Don't backtrack now.
That graph helps document what Bush left him and what Obama ADDED.

So the real question to you is this.
DOCUMENT what programs (and their costs) that Obama implemented that ADDED to the national deficit.




I have no idea who "AustinCountyNewsOnline" is and I have no idea why they made up data where they got their data.
Let's talk a real source. The CBO...
CBO estimates that the federal budget deficit in 2016 will be $544 billion...
Don't throw out crap from nobody sites that gives NO citation for the numbers it claims.



Your own source calls you a liar.
From your article:
It costs $1 million to keep one American service member in Afghanistan for a year. That meant the annual bill for the war last year was about $100 billion.
And note. That web-site DOES NOT differentiate between the cost of occupation WITHOUT the surge as compared WITH the surge.
THAT is what you were challenged to document.

So no. Obama did not add "hundreds of billions of taxpayer money" to the deficit when he chose to implement the surge.
Thank you for disproving your own claim.
The CBO estimated that we would have a $544 billion deficit, which was larger than any deficit under any other POTUS in history, but when it was all said and done the debt increase by $1.4 trillion in 2016.

https://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/debt/current

Date Debt Held by the Public Intragovernmental Holdings Total Public Debt Outstanding
10/01/2015 13,059,264,833,999.48 5,091,351,232,343.05 18,150,616,066,342.53

09/30/2016 14,173,423,516,895.82 5,400,021,197,040.97 19,573,444,713,936.79


Afghan War Funding
Quote:
After dropping from $23 billion in FY2002 to $1
7 billion in FY2003 and $15 billion in FY2004,
Afghan war costs rose to $19 billion in FY2005
and $31 billion in FY2006 with troop levels around
20,000. By FY2008, Afghan costs increased to $39 billion as both troop levels and the conflict’s
intensity grew. With the initiation of the Afghan
troop surge, costs grew to $56 billion in FY2009,
and $94 billion in FY2010, peaking at $107 billion in FY2011 (
Figure 3
).
As U.S. troop levels declined and Afghan forces have taken the lead in operations, U.S. costs
dropped to $86 billion in FY2013 and $77 billion in FY2014. The current FY2015 request is $58
billion for Afghanistan

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL33110.pdf
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Old May 4th, 2017, 09:40 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
The CBO estimated that we would have a $544 billion deficit, which was larger than any deficit under any other POTUS in history, but when it was all said and done the debt increase by $1.4 trillion in 2016.
https://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/debt/current
Date Debt Held by the Public Intragovernmental Holdings Total Public Debt Outstanding
10/01/2015 13,059,264,833,999.48 5,091,351,232,343.05 18,150,616,066,342.53
09/30/2016 14,173,423,516,895.82 5,400,021,197,040.97 19,573,444,713,936.79
No, no, no.
Can you LOOK at your web-site and what it's giving you?
It clearly says "Debt Held By The Public".
It even defines what this means.
What is the Debt Held by the Public?

The Debt Held by the Public is all federal debt held by individuals, corporations, state or local governments, Federal Reserve Banks, foreign governments, and other entities outside the United States Government less Federal Financing Bank securities. Types of securities held by the public include, but are not limited to, Treasury Bills, Notes, Bonds, TIPS, United States Savings Bonds, and State and Local Government Series securities.
Are you purposely changing the focus from DEFICIT to DEBT?
I'm talking about DEFICIT.

The real reason that the DEBT increased by that much is discussed on other pages.
In FY 2016 the federal deficit was $587 billion. But the gross federal debt increased by $1400 billion. Here is why.
US Federal Deficit by Year - plus charts and analysis

The above "Here is why" link gives us:
People naturally assume that the annual Deficit is the total that the Federal government borrows each year. Actually this is not so. The Deficit is simply the difference between Federal Outlays and Federal Receipts. Usually, the Feds borrow a lot more than the official Deficit.
The deficit for 2016 was $552 billion.
http://federal-budget.insidegov.com/l/119/2016
The debt grew by a larger amount for reasons other than the budget deficit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Your links repeatedly repudiate your claim that Obama ADDED "hundreds of billions of taxpayer money" to the deficit when he chose to implement the surge.

Let's start with this.
WHEN did Obama implement the Surge?

Last edited by foundit66; May 4th, 2017 at 12:21 PM.
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Old May 4th, 2017, 12:05 PM   #39
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Obama Didn't Say What Kind of Jobs

If professional liberals are wondering why they're the only ones praising Obama's job creation and other acclaimed successes, here's why most of the great unwashed masses are so ungrateful:


Obama Didn't Say What Kind of Jobs | The Economic Populist
Quote:
As Michael Hudson points out about Obama's claim on job growth, "It is not strong job growth when the jobs being created are mainly service-sector jobs paying the minimum wage or barely above it. This is not growth; it is barely keeping up with the working age population."
And what kind of jobs are these:
Quote:
Michael Grabell of ProPublica, and its editor-in-chief Steve Engelberg, discussed how the temporary work sector has ballooned, accounting for nearly 20 percent of the total job growth since 2009. As noted in this excellent article about the temp sector:

The temp system insulates companies from many employer responsibilities, while pushing worker's pay below minimum wage. Some of the country's biggest retailers have come to rely on (and profit from) this growing work force. (And ProPublica also reports that, on average, temps earn 25 percent less than permanent workers.)

According to a new study by the National Employment Law Project, opportunities for advancement in the fast-food industry is exceptionally rare. Less then 2 percent for fast-food industry jobs belong to the executives, while more than 89 percent of all jobs in the fast-food industry belong to cooks, cashiers, delivery workers and other non-managerial workers. Fast-food giants like McDonald’s and Yum! Brands (the operator of Taco Bell and KFC) are among the nation's largest low-wage employers. Front-line fast-food jobs --- which include cooks, cashiers, delivery workers and other non-managerial positions --- pay a median hourly wage of $8.94 per hour, and the workers stay in these positions for years at a time with no opportunity for advancement.

The unemployment rate was 10% by December 2009, when there were officially 15.3 million unemployed. Although, at some time it appears that the Bureau of Labor Statistics has since revised this down to 9.9% when they say, "Over the year, these measures were down from 15.2 million and 9.9 percent, respectively". So unemployment peaked at 15.2 million in 2010 but it's now at 11.8 million in 2013 --- for a difference of 3.4 million less people counted as unemployed since the depth of the recession.

So as Obama claims, are we really off to our strongest private-sector job growth since 1999? No actually. Comparing January to June's private payroll growth for 2011 with 1.129 million jobs gained during that period was actually better than 2013 with only 1.070 million private sector jobs gained so far this year.

Also, the number of people receiving unemployment insurance benefits in all programs (unadjusted) has risen from 4,523,206 on June 29th to 4,840,609 as of July 6th. At the current rate of hiring, how long will it take to put 20 million Americans (11.8 million unemployed + 8.2 million who hold part-time jobs, but want full-time work) back to work with regular full time jobs?

And why even bother asking for healthcare coverage, sick days and paid vacations. American workers (that aren't in a labor union) would have to travel back in time to the 1950's to get those type benefits. Funny how those record stock prices, record profits and record CEO salaries haven't been tricking down to the average American worker.

We were told by a presidential candidate last year that corporate America doesn't owe us a thing, and that if we aren't rich or have a job, it's our own fault; and to ask for more would be "Socialism". Although others would call it an equitable share of worker productivity --- a fair piece of the economic pie. But American workers have been left with nothing but the crumbs.

The website Popular Resistance reports on recent actions by low-wage workers that include domestic workers, Google security guards, Walmart workers, baseball concession workers and truckers (The Teamsters).

We have part-time or temporary low-paying jobs that don't offer benefits...that's our job growth. Apple hasn't been building factories in Iowa for union workers. And the better jobs in the tech industry are going to foreigner workers on H-1B visas --- and the worst of the worst jobs are going to undocumented workers that are paid below the federal minimum wage and are enduring all kinds of untold abuses.

This has been our job growth for the past four years. (Actually, since 1979, when all the manufacturing jobs began being offshored to Asia.) And over the past 40 months, over 600,000 of the better jobs that actually pays a "living wage" (the government jobs) have been slashed. If the GOP has their way, we'll all be waiting in line at the DMV for 3 days to renew our driver's license! And there's more to be lost before the end of the year with the "sequester" cuts.
All of the temp, part time and contract work that has made up most of the job growth being bragged about, just means an expansion of the insecure "precariat" class of workers. So, should it be much of a surprise when growing numbers of people do the unexpected during elections, like voting for the wrong candidate or not even bothering to show up at the polls?
Thanks from Sabcat
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Old May 4th, 2017, 12:50 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
No, no, no.
Can you LOOK at your web-site and what it's giving you?
It clearly says "Debt Held By The Public".
It even defines what this means.
What is the Debt Held by the Public?

The Debt Held by the Public is all federal debt held by individuals, corporations, state or local governments, Federal Reserve Banks, foreign governments, and other entities outside the United States Government less Federal Financing Bank securities. Types of securities held by the public include, but are not limited to, Treasury Bills, Notes, Bonds, TIPS, United States Savings Bonds, and State and Local Government Series securities.
Are you purposely changing the focus from DEFICIT to DEBT?
I'm talking about DEFICIT.

The real reason that the DEBT increased by that much is discussed on other pages.
In FY 2016 the federal deficit was $587 billion. But the gross federal debt increased by $1400 billion. Here is why.
US Federal Deficit by Year - plus charts and analysis

The above "Here is why" link gives us:
People naturally assume that the annual Deficit is the total that the Federal government borrows each year. Actually this is not so. The Deficit is simply the difference between Federal Outlays and Federal Receipts. Usually, the Feds borrow a lot more than the official Deficit.
The deficit for 2016 was $552 billion.
http://federal-budget.insidegov.com/l/119/2016


Your links repeatedly repudiate your claim that Obama ADDED "hundreds of billions of taxpayer money" to the deficit when he chose to implement the surge.

Let's start with this.
WHEN did Obama implement the Surge?
Spending in Afghanistan was $107 billion in 2011 alone, yes Obama spent hundreds of billions on his failed surge that sent thousands of US troops to their deaths.

You are showing why claiming that Obama reduced the deficit is an attempt at some mis-leading factoid. Government accounting is full of lies and tricks.

Increasing the budget deficit from $468 billion to $1,500 billion and then reducing it to $558 billion isn't really decreasing the deficit is it.

Despite record tax revenues in 2016, we had to borrow $1.4 trillion, yet you are trying to pass that off as some sort of accomplishment.
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