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Old August 25th, 2017, 09:39 PM   #11
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The rise of the independents is LONG overdue.

In many ways, independents aren't a third party. They stand for a second option in many cases.

While Ds and Rs differ in many ways, all to often they stand shoulder-to-shoulder, like on Afghanistan. Like on never addressing the burgeoning national debt. Like, they both will jump with claws out on third-party candidates.

More: https://ivn.us/2016/08/03/50-ways-de...-parties-same/
Without a party organization, an independent doesn't have a chance, the money, the organization for the ground game, it's why independents never get more than 15% of the vote.
Because a candidate who can pull more than 15% of the vote, should be able to win a party nomination.
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Old August 25th, 2017, 10:47 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
The rise of the independents is LONG overdue.

In many ways, independents aren't a third party. They stand for a second option in many cases.

While Ds and Rs differ in many ways, all to often they stand shoulder-to-shoulder, like on Afghanistan. Like on never addressing the burgeoning national debt. Like, they both will jump with claws out on third-party candidates.

More: https://ivn.us/2016/08/03/50-ways-de...-parties-same/
Had Paul came in 2016 w/ a tech savvy staff like king trump had, he most likely would have won.


The only way the Rs&Ds keep power is if they succeed in stifling the Internet.

If one was observant they would have witnessed them trying during the 2016 election. This is where they are attempting to lead these memes like "fake news"
And "hate speech". The people are going to foolishly ask for the very thing that will be the end of their liberties. The shackles are so close to coming off and the free Internet is the key. Look around, people are begging for the state to take it away, but no that is pure coincidence and not by design.
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Old August 25th, 2017, 11:31 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Sabcat View Post
Had Paul came in 2016 w/ a tech savvy staff like king trump had, he most likely would have won.


The only way the Rs&Ds keep power is if they succeed in stifling the Internet.

If one was observant they would have witnessed them trying during the 2016 election. This is where they are attempting to lead these memes like "fake news"
And "hate speech". The people are going to foolishly ask for the very thing that will be the end of their liberties. The shackles are so close to coming off and the free Internet is the key. Look around, people are begging for the state to take it away, but no that is pure coincidence and not by design.
I agree with most of that, though I'll mention again that during the 2012 primaries and caucuses I witnessed rules being made on the fly and applied ex post facto, rules that changed the vote and denied Paul the delegates that he earned.

As in many other places, the old guard was uncomfortable with Paul's being weak on defense. Total bullshit as you understand, but they also weren't ready for all the youth and energy and passion of Paul supporters. Scary to 'em. Scary to the Dems too. The old guard prevailed.

When I think of, and feel too, the the energy and the passion of those days, and feel the unity, when the imaginary lines separating people on the basis of gender, religion, age or race ... felt erased. I can re-live that in my imagination ... vividly. .

That energy has no expression of itself currently. Indeed, the energy itself has greatly diminished.

Sorry for the ramble.
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Old August 26th, 2017, 01:47 AM   #14
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The voting trends of democracies inevitably become tribal in nature. It's difficult for an independent to break through when a great many voters will vote for a party because of familial loyalty or social expectations. There is a great unshakeable bedrock on both the left and the right that no independent candidate can hope to break.

As the likes of Trump and Corbyn proved, the best course is to infiltrate a party and destroy it from within - by achieving power, and then filling up the ranks with your people, to influence the ideological shift of the party.
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Old August 26th, 2017, 06:24 AM   #15
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The voting trends of democracies inevitably become tribal in nature. It's difficult for an independent to break through when a great many voters will vote for a party because of familial loyalty or social expectations. There is a great unshakeable bedrock on both the left and the right that no independent candidate can hope to break.

As the likes of Trump and Corbyn proved, the best course is to infiltrate a party and destroy it from within - by achieving power, and then filling up the ranks with your people, to influence the ideological shift of the party.


Before Trump was elected I would have agreed with you 100%, but now I'm not so sure. As of 2016 42% of Americans had registered as Independents. Most are disgusted with both political parties and our incestuous party loyalty--or tribal tendencies...as you point out. Although I think most independents are partisans who are sick or partisanship, they have created a pretty solid voting block and are partly to blame for Trump's rise to power.

IF that power could be channeled into a candidate/team representing both parties, it COULD work. The Independents would have to become more engaged--more active politically, BUT with the right leadership (and with their disgust for Trump) it's possible they could pull it off.
I don't think they realize the power they have or at least COULD have.
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