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Old September 29th, 2017, 02:57 PM   #1
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More Dirty Dick (Nixon)

I just finished watching the 7th episode of Ken Burn's The Vietnam War. And it contained a shocker for me.

Through both a CIA bug in the S. Vietnamese government office and FBI taps on the S. Vietnam Washington embassy, LBJ learned that agents of Nixon had asked the Saigon government to not attend the Paris peace talks. After long, long discussions Hanoi had finally agreed to allowing them to, a longstanding condition the US insisted on. Thus it was thought some meaningful discussions could begin.

The Saigon government were told that Nixon would drive a harder bargain, more beneficial for the South than Humphrey would So three days before the election Saigon announced that they in fact wouldn't attend the Paris meetings.. LBJ in fact had been told about Nixon's actions some time before the election.

In recordied conversations between LBJ and several senior admin types it was definitely called treason, but they decided to keep quiet about it. Why I'm not sure.


This announcement by Saigon is considered to be a large factor of giving Nixon the win as it implied to the US voter that the Humphrey/LBJ plans were not working.


But then there was a cryptic line in the documentary that this did come back to contribute to Nixon's downfall.

Did it come out during the whole Watergate thing? I don't remember it.
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Last edited by RNG; September 29th, 2017 at 04:07 PM.
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Old September 29th, 2017, 04:40 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by RNG View Post
I just finished watching the 7th episode of Ken Burn's The Vietnam War. And it contained a shocker for me.

Through both a CIA bug in the S. Vietnamese government office and FBI taps on the S. Vietnam Washington embassy, LBJ learned that agents of Nixon had asked the Saigon government to not attend the Paris peace talks. After long, long discussions Hanoi had finally agreed to allowing them to, a longstanding condition the US insisted on. Thus it was thought some meaningful discussions could begin.

The Saigon government were told that Nixon would drive a harder bargain, more beneficial for the South than Humphrey would So three days before the election Saigon announced that they in fact wouldn't attend the Paris meetings.. LBJ in fact had been told about Nixon's actions some time before the election.

In recordied conversations between LBJ and several senior admin types it was definitely called treason, but they decided to keep quiet about it. Why I'm not sure.


This announcement by Saigon is considered to be a large factor of giving Nixon the win as it implied to the US voter that the Humphrey/LBJ plans were not working.


But then there was a cryptic line in the documentary that this did come back to contribute to Nixon's downfall.

Did it come out during the whole Watergate thing? I don't remember it.
No, Johnson knew Nixon was doing it and called a Republicans Senator threatening to out Nixon for his treason. Many believe that this is why Nixon went berserk over the publishing of the Pentagon papers. He was affraid that his treasonous behavior would be in the Pentagon papers.
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Old September 29th, 2017, 05:01 PM   #3
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No, Johnson knew Nixon was doing it and called a Republicans Senator threatening to out Nixon for his treason. Many believe that this is why Nixon went berserk over the publishing of the Pentagon papers. He was affraid that his treasonous behavior would be in the Pentagon papers.
Based on what was in the episode, and my google search, it appears LBJ never made that threat. Or at least they don't mention it and he never did.
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Old September 29th, 2017, 05:17 PM   #4
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Based on what was in the episode, and my google search, it appears LBJ never made that threat. Or at least they don't mention it and he never did.
Perhaps you should ask Spamelot to cite a source that proves his lie, sorry.....assertion.
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Old September 30th, 2017, 01:12 AM   #5
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Perhaps you should ask Spamelot to cite a source that proves his lie, sorry.....assertion.
I guess rightwing media doesn't provide this kind of information..which is otherwise easy to find with a term search:
Lyndon Johnson: White House tapes reveal he knew about Richard Nixon's 'treason' | Daily Mail Online

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President Lyndon Johnson knew of a plan by Richard Nixon to disrupt Vietnam War peace talks through 'treason,' but ultimately decided not to speak out about it, White House recordings have revealed.

The tapes, dating back to Johnson's last months in office between May 1968 and January 1969, show that Johnson was onto Nixon, who at the time was the Republican nominee for president.

According to the tapes, Johnson learned through FBI wiretaps that Nixon had played a role in getting South Vietnam to withdraw from peace talks in Paris that would effectively end the Vietnam War, and was therefore guilty of treason.
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Old September 30th, 2017, 01:29 AM   #6
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I just finished watching the 7th episode of Ken Burn's The Vietnam War. And it contained a shocker for me.

Through both a CIA bug in the S. Vietnamese government office and FBI taps on the S. Vietnam Washington embassy, LBJ learned that agents of Nixon had asked the Saigon government to not attend the Paris peace talks. After long, long discussions Hanoi had finally agreed to allowing them to, a longstanding condition the US insisted on. Thus it was thought some meaningful discussions could begin.

The Saigon government were told that Nixon would drive a harder bargain, more beneficial for the South than Humphrey would So three days before the election Saigon announced that they in fact wouldn't attend the Paris meetings.. LBJ in fact had been told about Nixon's actions some time before the election.

In recordied conversations between LBJ and several senior admin types it was definitely called treason, but they decided to keep quiet about it. Why I'm not sure.


This announcement by Saigon is considered to be a large factor of giving Nixon the win as it implied to the US voter that the Humphrey/LBJ plans were not working.


But then there was a cryptic line in the documentary that this did come back to contribute to Nixon's downfall.

Did it come out during the whole Watergate thing? I don't remember it.
No, Nixon was probably smart enough not to blab on about it when he was in the White House....though there has always been questions about at least one tape that had several minutes erased.

I'm not sure when the tape of Johnson discussing Nixon's scheming with Senator Edward Dirksen was made public, though I do remember hearing it a number of years ago when it was played on Thom Hartmann's radio show.

I myself, haven't bothered to tune in to Ken Burn's Vietnam film, cause I've already heard most of the important stuff about the War and it seems Burns's documentary is still another attempt to excuse the carnage as a well-intentioned but misguided effort by American leaders, which as journalist/documentary producer-John Pilger points out recently in his review, glosses over or omits entirely some disquieting facts on the subject:

Quote:
THE KILLING OF HISTORY
21 September 2017

In a society often bereft of historical memory and in thrall to the propaganda of its "exceptionalism", Burns' "entirely new" Vietnam war is presented as "epic, historic work". Its lavish advertising campaign promotes its biggest backer, Bank of America, which in 1971 was burned down by students in Santa Barbara, California, as a symbol of the hated war in Vietnam.

Burns says he is grateful to "the entire Bank of America family" which "has long supported our country's veterans". Bank of America was a corporate prop to an invasion that killed perhaps as many as four million Vietnamese and ravaged and poisoned a once bountiful land. More than 58,000 American soldiers were killed, and around the same number are estimated to have taken their own lives.

I watched the first episode in New York. It leaves you in no doubt of its intentions right from the start. The narrator says the war "was begun in good faith by decent people out of fateful misunderstandings, American overconfidence and Cold War misunderstandings".

The dishonesty of this statement is not surprising. The cynical fabrication of "false flags" that led to the invasion of Vietnam is a matter of record - the Gulf of Tonkin "incident" in 1964, which Burns promotes as true, was just one. The lies litter a multitude of official documents, notably the Pentagon Papers, which the great whistleblower Daniel Ellsberg released in 1971.

There was no good faith. The faith was rotten and cancerous. For me - as it must be for many Americans - it is difficult to watch the film's jumble of "red peril" maps, unexplained interviewees, ineptly cut archive and maudlin American battlefield sequences.

In the series' press release in Britain - the BBC will show it - there is no mention of Vietnamese dead, only Americans. "We are all searching for some meaning in this terrible tragedy," Novick is quoted as saying. How very post-modern.

All this will be familiar to those who have observed how the American media and popular culture behemoth has revised and served up the great crime of the second half of the twentieth century: from The Green Berets and The Deer Hunter to Rambo and, in so doing, has legitimised subsequent wars of aggression. The revisionism never stops and the blood never dries. The invader is pitied and purged of guilt, while "searching for some meaning in this terrible tragedy". Cue Bob Dylan: "Oh, where have you been, my blue-eyed son?"

I thought about the "decency" and "good faith" when recalling my own first experiences as a young reporter in Vietnam: watching hypnotically as the skin fell off Napalmed peasant children like old parchment, and the ladders of bombs that left trees petrified and festooned with human flesh. General William Westmoreland, the American commander, referred to people as "termites".

In the early 1970s, I went to Quang Ngai province, where in the village of My Lai, between 347 and 500 men, women and infants were murdered by American troops (Burns prefers "killings"). At the time, this was presented as an aberration: an "American tragedy" (Newsweek ). In this one province, it was estimated that 50,000 people had been slaughtered during the era of American "free fire zones". Mass homicide. This was not news.

To the north, in Quang Tri province, more bombs were dropped than in all of Germany during the Second World War. Since 1975, unexploded ordnance has caused more than 40,000 deaths in mostly "South Vietnam", the country America claimed to "save" and, with France, conceived as a singularly imperial ruse.

The "meaning" of the Vietnam war is no different from the meaning of the genocidal campaign against the Native Americans, the colonial massacres in the Philippines, the atomic bombings of Japan, the levelling of every city in North Korea. The aim was described by Colonel Edward Lansdale, the famous CIA man on whom Graham Greene based his central character in The Quiet American.

Quoting Robert Taber's The War of the Flea, Lansdale said, "There is only one means of defeating an insurgent people who will not surrender, and that is extermination. There is only one way to control a territory that harbours resistance, and that is to turn it into a desert.".......................................... ......................
THE KILLING OF HISTORY
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Old September 30th, 2017, 02:11 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by RNG View Post
I just finished watching the 7th episode of Ken Burn's The Vietnam War. And it contained a shocker for me.

Through both a CIA bug in the S. Vietnamese government office and FBI taps on the S. Vietnam Washington embassy, LBJ learned that agents of Nixon had asked the Saigon government to not attend the Paris peace talks. After long, long discussions Hanoi had finally agreed to allowing them to, a longstanding condition the US insisted on. Thus it was thought some meaningful discussions could begin.

The Saigon government were told that Nixon would drive a harder bargain, more beneficial for the South than Humphrey would So three days before the election Saigon announced that they in fact wouldn't attend the Paris meetings.. LBJ in fact had been told about Nixon's actions some time before the election.

In recordied conversations between LBJ and several senior admin types it was definitely called treason, but they decided to keep quiet about it. Why I'm not sure.


This announcement by Saigon is considered to be a large factor of giving Nixon the win as it implied to the US voter that the Humphrey/LBJ plans were not working.


But then there was a cryptic line in the documentary that this did come back to contribute to Nixon's downfall.

Did it come out during the whole Watergate thing? I don't remember it.
I was there and republican Richard Nixon (California) got in cahoots with democrat Wilber Mills (Arkansas), Chairman of the Ways and Means Committee, no less. Congress cut off our food and fuel in Vietnam, 1972. Democrat Wilber Mills had a secret fund which turned our fuel and food back on.
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Old September 30th, 2017, 04:35 AM   #8
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Based on what was in the episode, and my google search, it appears LBJ never made that threat. Or at least they don't mention it and he never did.
I could source you the actual taped phone call that Johnson made in which he made that very threat.
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Old September 30th, 2017, 04:39 AM   #9
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Perhaps you should ask Spamelot to cite a source that proves his lie, sorry.....assertion.
Here you go asshole. Listen to this and come back and apologize if you have so much as an ounce of integrity

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qbEPI_9Ju0k
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Old September 30th, 2017, 04:48 AM   #10
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Based on what was in the episode, and my google search, it appears LBJ never made that threat. Or at least they don't mention it and he never did.


There were so many lies--so many secrets. Look how long it has taken for some of the facts to be revealed. Sickening.

When I graduated from college most of us wore black armbands to protest the war and the admin was furious. That was ALL we did. It's hilarious, considering the violent protesting that had previously occurred all over the nation. My parents were shocked. LOL

But by that time we knew about the lies--or at least had read about them. Little did we know that what we thought we knew was a drop in the bucket.
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