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Old February 12th, 2018, 08:57 AM   #31
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Why Didn’t Americans Take Fascism Seriously Until it Was Too Late?

Or, The Price of Grandiose National Myths of Exceptionalism


Trump Saluting the Bastille Day Parade in France, Celebrating the Downfall of the Aristocracy - An Irony Lost on Him?

There’s a question that’s been echoing in my head. One I think that history will ask. Why didn’t Americans take fascism seriously until it was too late?

Perhaps that sounds harsh, maybe even absurd to you. So let me qualify it a little. “Fascism”. Friends, when a head of state wants to hold military parades — and not clapping is treason —LOL — is there another word, idea, or concept that fits better? Isn’t it then a willful denial of reality to say that such a watershed moment in a nation’s history is, if not outright atrocity, at least not the glittering spark of fascist implosion?

“Until it was too late”. There are many ways it can be “too late”. Until nothing can be done about it — or until, at least, the phenomenon itself occurred. Here, I mean the latter. Americans didn’t take fascism seriously until, at last, it (quite literally) paraded itself before their very eyes — and demanded they applaud on pain of treason. Sieg Heil! And maybe they still don’t. How funny. How strange.

Now that you understand my question perhaps it seems a little less extreme. Or maybe it still does. Maybe that reflects the times we live in. “Why didn’t Americans take the possibility of fascism seriously until it trumpeted down Constitution Avenue, letting the whole world know it had arrived?” Either way, let us try to derive an answer.

Now. The first way a nation might fail to take fascism seriously is trivial: there was no one left to warn of its dangers. But in America, at least a few of its thinkers did. They were sidelined, blacklisted, and deliberately erased. So the question then becomes: why did it become a taboo to even discuss the rise of fascism as a remote possibility — if not a likely probability? Every single major media outlet spent all of election year publishing pieces warning us not to use words like “fascism” and “authoritarianism” and “Hitler” and “Mussolini” — when they weren’t doing puff pieces on sympathetic Nazis. So there was a problem not of a lack of information in America — but of a strange, bizarre, glib kind of willful ignorance. A nation made itself blind, and now the authoritarians march and demand applause.

Why was that? Well, staying blind, we can go on believing our myths, which comfort and console us — that is exactly what elites were doing when they said things like “you cannot call it fascism!! Such a thing will never rise here!! We are the best!!!”. But, ironically — here is the point — it is the overweening belief in great myths that makes societies most vulnerable to fascism.

America has long had a culture of hierarchy, obedience, and overt, unforgiving social control. Break a rule — go to prison. Go to work — obey the boss. Go to school — recite the Pledge. And so on. Why? These are are ways to enforce a kind of conformity, aren’t they? Not just in thought — but also in appearance, in speech, in behaviour. In that way, they make true believers of national myths.

Now, there is not a nation in history whose myths do not say something like “we are wonderful and great and noble!!” That is the point of myths — to create a sense of confidence in a tribe. Then a person can give themselves over to the tribe’s goals, purposes, and uses — you, be a soldier, you, a doctor, you, a ditch-digger.

Still, some nations have more grandiose myths than others, don’t they? Some say: “well, we are pretty good”, and some say, “we are the best in the world!!”, and other still say “we are the best in history!! The best there ever was or will be!!”

Now, what happens the more grandiose a myth gets? The less room left there is for dissent, for difference, for reflection, for thought at all. There is not even any room left for reason, empirical reality, or humanity — but those are harder things. So in this way, a society so dependent on myths as grandiose as America’s is always at risk of plunging into little fascisms. The dark side of “We are the best!” is “Those filthy subhumans!! They are what is stopping us from attaining our god-given destiny!! We must cleanse ourselves of them to be the best!!”

So what do a nation’s myths protect it from? From reality. From its very real shortcomings and flaws and mistakes and catastrophes. They mythologize them away — they rationalize them away (“we had to do it!!”), they economize them away (“the benefits were greater than the costs!”), they erase them away (“that really happened?! It couldn’t have been as bad as that!!”). The more grandiose its myths are, the more detached from reality a nation can get.

What are such mistakes in American history? It would be an error to this is the only fascist moment in American history. There have been many. Anti-Chinese laws. Japanese internment. Italian discrimination. Anti-semitism. And of course the many horrors of slavery, segregation, and native genocide, too, cannot go unsaid. Those points make a trend, a leaning towards sudden collapses into fascism, which might seem small relative to Nazi Germany, but assuredly weren’t to those living through them. There is a distinct fascist tendency in American history that isn’t oft present elsewhere. This moment in American history is not an anomaly.

Still, this moment feels special, doesn’t it? Why is that? Because now it is not just minorities at risk of fascism’s depredations — but the majority , too. Do you see how a society that depends on myths cannot learn from its mistakes? Do you see how the societies that rely most on grandiose myths as forms of social control and cohesion, then, are the most vulnerable to fascist implosions?

The more grandiose a nation’s myths, the more vulnerable it is to fascism — and that is why America’s history has been marked by fascist implosions. The more grandiose a nation’s myths, the more harsh and exploitative it must be too, just like any narcissist, who needs to defend his sense of specialness and destiny at any price. And the more grandiose a nation’s myths, the less it can ever admit its mistakes — and so the vicious cycle just goes on and on. Fascist implosions never stop. Progress slows to a halt. Life stops improving. Tribal takes hold. Cruelty becomes a way of life. Sound familiar yet?

So all this is — and I admit it is hard to understand, come to grips with, get a feel for — the problem that America must face, in a deeper way. It’s reliance on grandiose national myths of greatness and exceptionalism have shielded and protected it for too long, from at least three aspects of reality. First, history: its tendency to implode into fascism. Second, economics: the failure to write a working social contract that all the above implies. Third, modernity: its inability to keep up with the rest of the advanced world in terms of basic quality of life since the 1970s or so. Unless those three aspects are faced, then, I think that America will be as vulnerable to fascist collapses as it has ever been.

Only America’s fascist collapses are likely to grow worse. Why is that? We have established that it is now even the majority who is at risk of fascism’s harms — not only the minority. What does that really mean? It means that America never built a working social contract. It was always necessary to exploit, enslave, or turn on someone, for the economy to grind away.

It’s true to say that in history, that much was true for every colonial empire — but it was distinctly not true after the waves of reform that swept the rest of the world from the late 1900s onwards, and established, for example, NHSes and BBCs. America was too busy, instead, looking for the next group to exploit — once the last had been chewed up, natives, blacks, Asians, Latinos. Until, at last, there was no one left — but poor whites themselves.

One can hardly blame them for turning to fascism, then. How much easier it is believe in myths of especial greatness and nobility and destiny at the precise moment that you are being exploited, than to ask yourself to see the terrible truth: you have been failed, just as all those around you have been failed. No one was special, above anyone else, or singular. All were victims of a broken way of life.

Myths might liberate us in one way — they allow us to live lives filled with pride and belief — but they subjugate us in others: pride soon enough becomes hubris, and belief soon enough becomes ignorance. And so the more grandiose a myth is, the harder the fall. It is liberation from that subjugation, of hubris and ignorance, that Americans need most. If that sounds harsh to you, I can only say this much: I mean it in a gentle way, because the work of freeing one’s self is always difficult. Sometimes, too difficult to bear — especially when there are pleasant fairy tales of your very own specialness and preciousness to be told and heard and kept safe and pure.

That is why Americans didn’t see fascism coming until it was too late. They never do.

By Umair Haque
https://eand.co/why-didnt-americans-...e-445d2e4c387a

I believe this article is unusually intelligent and well written...and takes seriously a very serious issue.

Note, the red highlighted portions of the article are my own highlights, not the authors. I found them to be exceptionally pertinent to this forum in particular.

In particular, the comment about the 'glib' way the Trump supporters treat this frightening vision of a future America. That there can be light hearted jokes (and slurs about dissenters) absolutely dumbfounds and confounds me.

Also, the caption under the photo is my own, not the caption (nor the photo) that accompanies the original article.

I have no doubt that this will either be ignored by the Trump advocates and Trumpeteers - or, more likely, I will be derided and ridiculed for posting it. But even knowing that, I felt it was an important article that deserved attention.
WWAFD (What would a Fascist do}

Burn Books,

Who is banning books The left

Shut Down opposing speech

Who is burning campuses and protesting to prevent people from speaking

The left

More progressive taxes

Who supports Progressive Income taxes The left.

Stronger Gun control laws (even banning)

Who supports strong Gun control laws.. The left.


so I am Glad we elected Trump so we would Opposes the Fascists of the left


You are supporting the Fascists not the Trump Supporters.
Thanks from guy39 and Sabcat
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Old February 12th, 2018, 09:29 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by tristanrobin View Post
He's a former President and not of any consequence in a discussion of current politics.
This discussion is a consequence of his politics.
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Old February 12th, 2018, 09:58 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tristanrobin View Post
Why Didn’t Americans Take Fascism Seriously Until it Was Too Late?

Or, The Price of Grandiose National Myths of Exceptionalism


Trump Saluting the Bastille Day Parade in France, Celebrating the Downfall of the Aristocracy - An Irony Lost on Him?

There’s a question that’s been echoing in my head. One I think that history will ask. Why didn’t Americans take fascism seriously until it was too late?

Perhaps that sounds harsh, maybe even absurd to you. So let me qualify it a little. “Fascism”. Friends, when a head of state wants to hold military parades — and not clapping is treason —LOL — is there another word, idea, or concept that fits better? Isn’t it then a willful denial of reality to say that such a watershed moment in a nation’s history is, if not outright atrocity, at least not the glittering spark of fascist implosion?

“Until it was too late”. There are many ways it can be “too late”. Until nothing can be done about it — or until, at least, the phenomenon itself occurred. Here, I mean the latter. Americans didn’t take fascism seriously until, at last, it (quite literally) paraded itself before their very eyes — and demanded they applaud on pain of treason. Sieg Heil! And maybe they still don’t. How funny. How strange.

Now that you understand my question perhaps it seems a little less extreme. Or maybe it still does. Maybe that reflects the times we live in. “Why didn’t Americans take the possibility of fascism seriously until it trumpeted down Constitution Avenue, letting the whole world know it had arrived?” Either way, let us try to derive an answer.

Now. The first way a nation might fail to take fascism seriously is trivial: there was no one left to warn of its dangers. But in America, at least a few of its thinkers did. They were sidelined, blacklisted, and deliberately erased. So the question then becomes: why did it become a taboo to even discuss the rise of fascism as a remote possibility — if not a likely probability? Every single major media outlet spent all of election year publishing pieces warning us not to use words like “fascism” and “authoritarianism” and “Hitler” and “Mussolini” — when they weren’t doing puff pieces on sympathetic Nazis. So there was a problem not of a lack of information in America — but of a strange, bizarre, glib kind of willful ignorance. A nation made itself blind, and now the authoritarians march and demand applause.

Why was that? Well, staying blind, we can go on believing our myths, which comfort and console us — that is exactly what elites were doing when they said things like “you cannot call it fascism!! Such a thing will never rise here!! We are the best!!!”. But, ironically — here is the point — it is the overweening belief in great myths that makes societies most vulnerable to fascism.

America has long had a culture of hierarchy, obedience, and overt, unforgiving social control. Break a rule — go to prison. Go to work — obey the boss. Go to school — recite the Pledge. And so on. Why? These are are ways to enforce a kind of conformity, aren’t they? Not just in thought — but also in appearance, in speech, in behaviour. In that way, they make true believers of national myths.

Now, there is not a nation in history whose myths do not say something like “we are wonderful and great and noble!!” That is the point of myths — to create a sense of confidence in a tribe. Then a person can give themselves over to the tribe’s goals, purposes, and uses — you, be a soldier, you, a doctor, you, a ditch-digger.

Still, some nations have more grandiose myths than others, don’t they? Some say: “well, we are pretty good”, and some say, “we are the best in the world!!”, and other still say “we are the best in history!! The best there ever was or will be!!”

Now, what happens the more grandiose a myth gets? The less room left there is for dissent, for difference, for reflection, for thought at all. There is not even any room left for reason, empirical reality, or humanity — but those are harder things. So in this way, a society so dependent on myths as grandiose as America’s is always at risk of plunging into little fascisms. The dark side of “We are the best!” is “Those filthy subhumans!! They are what is stopping us from attaining our god-given destiny!! We must cleanse ourselves of them to be the best!!”

So what do a nation’s myths protect it from? From reality. From its very real shortcomings and flaws and mistakes and catastrophes. They mythologize them away — they rationalize them away (“we had to do it!!”), they economize them away (“the benefits were greater than the costs!”), they erase them away (“that really happened?! It couldn’t have been as bad as that!!”). The more grandiose its myths are, the more detached from reality a nation can get.

What are such mistakes in American history? It would be an error to this is the only fascist moment in American history. There have been many. Anti-Chinese laws. Japanese internment. Italian discrimination. Anti-semitism. And of course the many horrors of slavery, segregation, and native genocide, too, cannot go unsaid. Those points make a trend, a leaning towards sudden collapses into fascism, which might seem small relative to Nazi Germany, but assuredly weren’t to those living through them. There is a distinct fascist tendency in American history that isn’t oft present elsewhere. This moment in American history is not an anomaly.

Still, this moment feels special, doesn’t it? Why is that? Because now it is not just minorities at risk of fascism’s depredations — but the majority , too. Do you see how a society that depends on myths cannot learn from its mistakes? Do you see how the societies that rely most on grandiose myths as forms of social control and cohesion, then, are the most vulnerable to fascist implosions?

The more grandiose a nation’s myths, the more vulnerable it is to fascism — and that is why America’s history has been marked by fascist implosions. The more grandiose a nation’s myths, the more harsh and exploitative it must be too, just like any narcissist, who needs to defend his sense of specialness and destiny at any price. And the more grandiose a nation’s myths, the less it can ever admit its mistakes — and so the vicious cycle just goes on and on. Fascist implosions never stop. Progress slows to a halt. Life stops improving. Tribal takes hold. Cruelty becomes a way of life. Sound familiar yet?

So all this is — and I admit it is hard to understand, come to grips with, get a feel for — the problem that America must face, in a deeper way. It’s reliance on grandiose national myths of greatness and exceptionalism have shielded and protected it for too long, from at least three aspects of reality. First, history: its tendency to implode into fascism. Second, economics: the failure to write a working social contract that all the above implies. Third, modernity: its inability to keep up with the rest of the advanced world in terms of basic quality of life since the 1970s or so. Unless those three aspects are faced, then, I think that America will be as vulnerable to fascist collapses as it has ever been.

Only America’s fascist collapses are likely to grow worse. Why is that? We have established that it is now even the majority who is at risk of fascism’s harms — not only the minority. What does that really mean? It means that America never built a working social contract. It was always necessary to exploit, enslave, or turn on someone, for the economy to grind away.

It’s true to say that in history, that much was true for every colonial empire — but it was distinctly not true after the waves of reform that swept the rest of the world from the late 1900s onwards, and established, for example, NHSes and BBCs. America was too busy, instead, looking for the next group to exploit — once the last had been chewed up, natives, blacks, Asians, Latinos. Until, at last, there was no one left — but poor whites themselves.

One can hardly blame them for turning to fascism, then. How much easier it is believe in myths of especial greatness and nobility and destiny at the precise moment that you are being exploited, than to ask yourself to see the terrible truth: you have been failed, just as all those around you have been failed. No one was special, above anyone else, or singular. All were victims of a broken way of life.

Myths might liberate us in one way — they allow us to live lives filled with pride and belief — but they subjugate us in others: pride soon enough becomes hubris, and belief soon enough becomes ignorance. And so the more grandiose a myth is, the harder the fall. It is liberation from that subjugation, of hubris and ignorance, that Americans need most. If that sounds harsh to you, I can only say this much: I mean it in a gentle way, because the work of freeing one’s self is always difficult. Sometimes, too difficult to bear — especially when there are pleasant fairy tales of your very own specialness and preciousness to be told and heard and kept safe and pure.

That is why Americans didn’t see fascism coming until it was too late. They never do.

By Umair Haque
https://eand.co/why-didnt-americans-...e-445d2e4c387a

I believe this article is unusually intelligent and well written...and takes seriously a very serious issue.

Note, the red highlighted portions of the article are my own highlights, not the authors. I found them to be exceptionally pertinent to this forum in particular.

In particular, the comment about the 'glib' way the Trump supporters treat this frightening vision of a future America. That there can be light hearted jokes (and slurs about dissenters) absolutely dumbfounds and confounds me.

Also, the caption under the photo is my own, not the caption (nor the photo) that accompanies the original article.

I have no doubt that this will either be ignored by the Trump advocates and Trumpeteers - or, more likely, I will be derided and ridiculed for posting it. But even knowing that, I felt it was an important article that deserved attention.
I do not understand why you are calling nationalism fascism? We would not call the Romans fascist, and it is a bad idea to sit in the bleachers at a football game and cheer for opposing team. I am saying we are behaving like animals and this is not limited to fascism. Such imperialism or nationalism is basic tribalism only one a larger scale.

What made the US different was education and we replaced the education that made us different with Germany's model of education for technology for military and industrial purpose. Now Christians are talking about Satan being unleashed on earth and we are the military industrial complex we defended our democracy against. Unless this explanation about the difference education makes is understood, there is no solution to the problem.

Fascism is an economic order and we thought it was the solution to economic crashes and it was implemented during the Franklin Roosevelt administration. There are good reasons for this and things didn't spin out of control until the 1958 National Defense Education Act radically changed public education, shifting us from a highly moral, thinking population prepared to make good political decisions, to a bunch of animals. We are like hooting chimps willing to follow the biggest and meanest male.
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Old February 12th, 2018, 10:09 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by TNVolunteer73 View Post
WWAFD (What would a Fascist do}

Burn Books,

Who is banning books The left

Shut Down opposing speech

Who is burning campuses and protesting to prevent people from speaking

The left

More progressive taxes

Who supports Progressive Income taxes The left.

Stronger Gun control laws (even banning)

Who supports strong Gun control laws.. The left.


so I am Glad we elected Trump so we would Opposes the Fascists of the left


You are supporting the Fascists not the Trump Supporters.
I do not think your post appeals to our intellect. You are blaming and that is not a developed skill for rational thinking. It can not possibly persuade anyone to agree with you. It is equal to a football cheer for your favorite team, not good reasoning.
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Old February 12th, 2018, 10:15 AM   #35
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It’s hard to find a self-respecting liberal these days who doesn’t denounce Donald Trump as “a fascist.” if you Google “fascist” the first thing that pops on the screen is a photo of Mr. Trump.https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2...ft-in-america/
I'll read the rest if your quoted article Sab, but I googled "fascist" and and a photo of Trump wasn't the first thing that popped onto my screen.

That casts a rather dense pall upon whatever else this article has to say. It is, textbook, an alternative fact, a lie masquerading as truth.

If this doesn't help you and other Trump supporters understand why the rest of us find it almost impossible to take Trump supporters seriously, trying to bring a light to your eyes may be the most foolish of a fool's errand.

Now, I'll read the rest.
Thanks from tristanrobin
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Old February 12th, 2018, 10:17 AM   #36
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Obama..............

Meh.
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Old February 12th, 2018, 10:21 AM   #37
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SMH.........

The article's definition of fascism is yet another alternative facts.

Sab, it's all your side has. When will you see this?

Your side didn't so much make a mistake in electing him - I mean, look at what the alternative was - as you are making a mistake now by not demanding more from the man you elected.

Dammit Sab, are you going to tell me that you didn't have dudes like Trump in your high school? And that, you didn't have one ounce of respect for them?
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Old February 12th, 2018, 10:28 AM   #38
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No it is not, Fascism is Totalitarian socialism.

Which is it, is Trump a Capitalist Pig, or Socialist Scum you cannot have it both ways.

This is the problem with people that have TDS is they don't know what they believe, they are very confused people.

Trump is a pragmatist not socialist or Capitalist. He does something if it works he continues, if not he changes course, that is why we was successful in Business and as POTUS. unlike socialist left wingers they think something fails because they didn't throw enough money at it.

He isn't in it to make friends but instead results is what he desires.
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Old February 12th, 2018, 10:34 AM   #39
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For sure Obama was open to reasoning with all people and he was not so sure he knew the answers that he made snap decisions without hearing others out and contemplating the issues and he did not try to force what he thought best on everyone but reasoned with them. People who like Trump, see people like Carter and Obama as weak. Obama and his followers value intellectual thinking, and I would say many followers of Trump do not value intellect and reasoning but think a leader who makes decisions without thinking too much and does so with great shows of power, instead of humility, are much better leaders.

I really think the difference in followers is having an understanding of logic and that we must learn the skills of logic, and those who don't understand that, but think just because we have brains we can think.

The Nazi party began eliminated all political opposition and consolidated its power. Trump is doing that. Obama did not. Trump is doing what his followers want him to do, just as Hitler did what his followers wanted him to do. This follows years of a reactionary politics and legislature fighting for power and not making the agreements that government must make, and this follows the 1958 National Defense Education Act.

Last edited by Athena; February 12th, 2018 at 10:40 AM.
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Old February 12th, 2018, 10:54 AM   #40
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No it is not, Fascism is Totalitarian socialism.

Which is it, is Trump a Capitalist Pig, or Socialist Scum you cannot have it both ways.

This is the problem with people that have TDS is they don't know what they believe, they are very confused people.

Trump is a pragmatist not socialist or Capitalist. He does something if it works he continues, if not he changes course, that is why we was successful in Business and as POTUS. unlike socialist left wingers they think something fails because they didn't throw enough money at it.

He isn't in it to make friends but instead results is what he desires.

Trump successful in business?

Quote:
One of Marco Rubio’s top zingers in the debate last week was that if Trump hadn’t gotten an inheritance of $200 million from his father, he’d be “selling watches” in the streets of Manhattan. Rubio got the figures about Trump’s inheritance wrong — $200 million is actually what Trump’s dad’s fortune was estimated at in the 1970s, not Trump’s inheritance — but Trump clearly benefited from the wealth and connections of his father, Fred Trump.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.b53379cc0f02
What Trump is best at is being a con man. This is from the link above.

“I play to people’s fantasies,” Trump wrote in his 1987 book “The Art of the Deal.” “I call it truthful hyperbole. It’s an innocent form of exaggeration — and a very effective form of promotion.”

Oh yeah, he is good at that!
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