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Old June 29th, 2018, 08:17 PM   #41
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And then there will be plenty of jobs for the undocumented foreigners and the rest of us will be standing on the unemployment line. There won't be any tax dollars to pay for my kids school, not that they'll need an education anyway as there will be no jobs.
I don't believe that.
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Old June 29th, 2018, 10:15 PM   #42
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Most immigrants are in the U.S. legally, something most Americans don’t know


[/IMG]
Volunteers help walk dozens of women and their children, many fleeing poverty and violence in Honduras, Guatemala and El Salvador, to a relief center after their release from Customs and Border Protection on Friday in McAllen, Tex.


Misinformation about America’s immigrant population is rampant.
It certainly is! But I want to focus on the refugee issue for a second, because I've touched on this several times before: US foreign policy is responsible for creating most of the refugee crisis today, and that in itself means the US Government has no moral standing to refuse entry to refugee claimants from...Honduras for example:

How US policy in Honduras set the stage for today’s mass migration

Central American migrants – particularly unaccompanied minors – are again crossing the U.S.-Mexico boundary in large numbers.

In 2014, more than 68,000 unaccompanied Central American children were apprehended at the U.S.-Mexico boundary. This year so far there have been close to 60,000.

The mainstream narrative often reduces the causes of migration to factors unfolding in migrants’ home countries. In reality, migration is often a manifestation of a profoundly unequal and exploitative relationship between migrant-sending countries and countries of destination. Understanding this is vital to making immigration policy more effective and ethical.

Through my research on immigration and border policing, I have learned a lot about these dynamics. One example involves relations between Honduras and the United States.

U.S. roots of Honduran emigration
I first visited Honduras in 1987 to do research. As I walked around the city of Comayagua, many thought that I, a white male with short hair in his early 20’s, was a U.S. soldier. This was because hundreds of U.S. soldiers were stationed at the nearby Palmerola Air Base at the time. Until shortly before my arrival, many of them would frequent Comayagua, particularly its “red zone” of female sex workers.

U.S. military presence in Honduras and the roots of Honduran migration to the United States are closely linked. It began in the late 1890s, when U.S.-based banana companies first became active there. As historian Walter LaFeber writes in “Inevitable Revolutions: The United States in Central America,” American companies “built railroads, established their own banking systems, and bribed government officials at a dizzying pace.” As a result, the Caribbean coast “became a foreign-controlled enclave that systematically swung the whole of Honduras into a one-crop economy whose wealth was carried off to New Orleans, New York, and later Boston.”

By 1914, U.S. banana interests owned almost 1 million acres of Honduras’ best land. These holdings grew through the 1920s to such an extent that, as LaFeber asserts, Honduran peasants “had no hope of access to their nation’s good soil.” Over a few decades, U.S. capital also came to dominate the country’s banking and mining sectors, a process facilitated by the weak state of Honduras’ domestic business sector. This was coupled with direct U.S. political and military interventions to protect U.S. interests in 1907 and 1911.

Such developments made Honduras’ ruling class dependent on Washington for support. A central component of this ruling class was and remains the Honduran military. By the mid-1960s it had become, in LaFeber’s words, the country’s “most developed political institution,” – one that Washington played a key role in shaping.

The Reagan era

A U.S. military advisor instructs Honduran troopers in Puerto Castilla, Honduras, in 1983. AP Photo
This was especially the case during the presidency of Ronald Reagan in the 1980s. At that time, U.S. political and military policy was so influential that many referred to the Central American country as the “U.S.S. Honduras” and the Pentagon Republic.

As part of its effort to overthrow the Sandinista government in neighboring Nicaragua and “roll back” the region’s leftist movements, the Reagan administration “temporarily” stationed several hundred U.S. soldiers in Honduras. Moreover, it trained and sustained Nicaragua’s “contra” rebels on Honduran soil, while greatly increasing military aid and arm sales to the country.

The Reagan years also saw the construction of numerous joint Honduran-U.S. military bases and installations. Such moves greatly strengthened the militarization of Honduran society. In turn, political repression rose. There was a dramatic increase in the number of political assassinations, “disappearances” and illegal detentions.

The Reagan administration also played a big role in restructuring the Honduran economy. It did so by strongly pushing for internal economic reforms, with a focus on exporting manufactured goods. It also helped deregulate and destabilize the global coffee trade, upon which Honduras heavily depended. These changes made Honduras more amenable to the interests of global capital. They disrupted traditional forms of agriculture and undermined an already weak social safety net.

These decades of U.S. involvement in Honduras set the stage for Honduran emigration to the United States, which began to markedly increase in the 1990s.

In the post-Reagan era, Honduras remained a country scarred by a heavy-handed military, significant human rights abuses and pervasive poverty. Still, liberalizing tendencies of successive governments and grassroots pressure provided openings for democratic forces.

They contributed, for example, to the election of Manuel Zelaya, a liberal reformist, as president in 2006. He led on progressive measures such as raising the minimum wage. He also tried to organize a plebiscite to allow for a constituent assembly to replace the country’s constitution, which had been written during a military government. However, these efforts incurred the ire of the country’s oligarchy, leading to his overthrow by the military in June 2009.

Post-coup Honduras
The 2009 coup, more than any other development, explains the increase in Honduran migration across the southern U.S. border in the last few years. The Obama administration has played an important role in these developments. Although it officially decried Zelaya’s ouster, it equivocated on whether or not it constituted a coup, which would have required the U.S. to stop sending most aid to the country.


Then Secretary of State Hillary Clinton meets with Honduran foreign minister in 2010. AP Photo/Evan Vucci
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, in particular, sent conflicting messages, and worked to ensure that Zelaya did not return to power. This was contrary to the wishes of the Organization of American States, the leading hemispheric political forum composed of the 35 member-countries of the Americas, including the Caribbean. Several months after the coup, Clinton supported a highly questionable election aimed at legitimating the post-coup government.

Strong military ties between the U.S. and Honduras persist: several hundred U.S. troops are stationed at Soto Cano Air Base (formerly Palmerola) in the name of fighting the drug war and providing humanitarian aid.

Since the coup, writes historian Dana Frank, “a series of corrupt administrations has unleashed open criminal control of Honduras, from top to bottom of the government.”

Organized crime, drug traffickers and the country’s police heavily overlap. Impunity reigns in a country with frequent politically-motivated killings. It is the world’s most dangerous country for environmental activists, according to Global Witness, an international nongovernmental organization.

Although its once sky-high murder rate has declined, the continuing exodus of many youth demonstrates that violent gangs still plague urban neighborhoods.

Meanwhile, post-coup governments have intensified an increasingly unregulated, “free market” form of capitalism that makes life unworkable for many. Government spending on health and education, for example, has declined in Honduras. Meanwhile, the country’s poverty rate has risen markedly. These contribute to the growing pressures that push many people to migrate.

While the next U.S. president will deliberate about what to do about unwanted immigration from “south of the border,” this history provides lessons as to the roots of migration. It also raises ethical questions as to the responsibility of the United States toward those now fleeing from the ravages U.S. policy has helped to produce.

https://theconversation.com/how-us-p...igration-65935
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Old June 29th, 2018, 10:21 PM   #43
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I don't believe that.

WHY would a company pay an American $20 an hour when they could hire a foreigner to do it for $5 ?? Why would they pay $100 and hour for a highly skilled American when they could pay $25 for an equally skilled foreigner ??

The ONLY reason a company would hire an American would be they couldn't find a similarly qualified foreigner.

Unfettered capitalism is no better for the common people than any other form of government or economy.
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Old June 30th, 2018, 12:12 AM   #44
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WHY would a company pay an American $20 an hour when they could hire a foreigner to do it for $5 ?? Why would they pay $100 and hour for a highly skilled American when they could pay $25 for an equally skilled foreigner ??

The ONLY reason a company would hire an American would be they couldn't find a similarly qualified foreigner.

Unfettered capitalism is no better for the common people than any other form of government or economy.
I hear what you are saying but we really dont have much of a problem w/ that now and it is nothing compared to the the billions of dollars wasted on entitlement programs for non americans. If there is not the incentive of free shit very few will come and the ones that do will actually want to contribute to society.

As it stands it is no problem to undercut peoples wages when tbey are being paid under the table and being subsidized by the state. What do i care if some people wannt to escape the communist shithole they were born in and stack 6 people into a one bedroom apartment for a few years getting assimilated? IMO that is what it is all about. That is what this nation is built on. More power to them. Just dont make me pay for them trying to escape
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Old June 30th, 2018, 04:35 AM   #45
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The ONLY reason a company would hire an American would be they couldn't find a similarly qualified foreigner.

Unfettered capitalism is no better for the common people than any other form of government or economy.
There are many reasons why business wants to hire foreign workers. Just a couple.
Most workers brought to this country under sponsored work visas have a far better work ethic than most Americans. They take the attitude that they are on probation and need to show their best to earn permanent status.

They are in the country legally, thus are not a threat of govt actions to their employer.

They come to the new employer with a full skill set that does not need the "finishing" that many domestics do. The American systems of education waste so much time and money on forming politically correct and socially acceptable drones that they neglect the skills necessary to be competitive in todays world.
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Old June 30th, 2018, 07:56 AM   #46
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There are many reasons why business wants to hire foreign workers. Just a couple.
Most workers brought to this country under sponsored work visas have a far better work ethic than most Americans. They take the attitude that they are on probation and need to show their best to earn permanent status.

They are in the country legally, thus are not a threat of govt actions to their employer.

They come to the new employer with a full skill set that does not need the "finishing" that many domestics do. The American systems of education waste so much time and money on forming politically correct and socially acceptable drones that they neglect the skills necessary to be competitive in todays world.
Where I used to live-in the Niagara Peninsula, most of the farm workers at vinyards and orchards are migrant guest workers...most coming back every year to the same employers. The US used to have a lot more guest worker programs also...what happened?

Once again, I believe this is part of the unspoken dialogue on the whole immigration issue, which can't be discussed rationally anymore, so the players all lie to each other and especially to the public! A few people have run the guest worker solution up the flagpole a time or two, but immediately get shouted down by the fortress america freaks and undefended by the self-proclaimed believers in equality and human rights. The right wants to try to have it both ways: dirt-cheap slave labor + a sealed southern border.

This has always been a bit of a stretch: the rightwing oligarchy loves cheap, migrant labor to boost their profit margins, leverage against demands from unions and unorganized labor, but this requires cheating on their part, and not fully supporting the rightwing plebes they depend on for public support, who just want a reduction in the number of dark-skinned people, with the guarantee of a permanently white America in the future.

Even now, with their hero - Trump in the White House, most of the effort is still on keeping the migrants persecuted, working cheap and always on the run....can't organize a union around that! But T-rump has no more interest in going after the monied interests that draw migrants to America with the promise of jobs than any previous presidents or administrations!
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Old June 30th, 2018, 08:16 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Clicker II View Post
There are many reasons why business wants to hire foreign workers. Just a couple.
Most workers brought to this country under sponsored work visas have a far better work ethic than most Americans. They take the attitude that they are on probation and need to show their best to earn permanent status.

They are in the country legally, thus are not a threat of govt actions to their employer.

They come to the new employer with a full skill set that does not need the "finishing" that many domestics do. The American systems of education waste so much time and money on forming politically correct and socially acceptable drones that they neglect the skills necessary to be competitive in todays world.
A large part of the problem with work ethic of locals is parents and a society that enables sloth. You can't lay it all off on the education system.

But there too, the philosophy of participation trophies is just plain wrong.
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Old June 30th, 2018, 08:24 AM   #48
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Where I used to live-in the Niagara Peninsula, most of the farm workers at vinyards and orchards are migrant guest workers...most coming back every year to the same employers. The US used to have a lot more guest worker programs also...what happened?

Once again, I believe this is part of the unspoken dialogue on the whole immigration issue, which can't be discussed rationally anymore, so the players all lie to each other and especially to the public! A few people have run the guest worker solution up the flagpole a time or two, but immediately get shouted down by the fortress america freaks and undefended by the self-proclaimed believers in equality and human rights. The right wants to try to have it both ways: dirt-cheap slave labor + a sealed southern border.

This has always been a bit of a stretch: the rightwing oligarchy loves cheap, migrant labor to boost their profit margins, leverage against demands from unions and unorganized labor, but this requires cheating on their part, and not fully supporting the rightwing plebes they depend on for public support, who just want a reduction in the number of dark-skinned people, with the guarantee of a permanently white America in the future.

Even now, with their hero - Trump in the White House, most of the effort is still on keeping the migrants persecuted, working cheap and always on the run....can't organize a union around that! But T-rump has no more interest in going after the monied interests that draw migrants to America with the promise of jobs than any previous presidents or administrations!
There still is one program and as far as I can tell there never was more than one. That was started during WW1 and continues today. There is a clamor from the left to make the migrant workers permanent residents and unionize them and all the other BS. Note that this has been the case during every Prez term of office, not just the target you love to bash, Trump. This from the left,
https://www.splcenter.org/issues/imm.../guest-workers
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Old June 30th, 2018, 08:47 AM   #49
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A large part of the problem with work ethic of locals is parents and a society that enables sloth. You can't lay it all off on the education system.

But there too, the philosophy of participation trophies is just plain wrong.
That's true. Now, how about social promotion? (kids with diplomas that can't read or do simple math) Classes that teach kids how to use the welfare system? Ebonics? (never happened but was really pushed in LA) Teaching social justice?

There are too many programs that use time to indoctrinate rather than instruct students and not enough teaching the skills necessary to be successful after they leave school. I'd rather see a program like Germany that gives students an additional 2 yrs of vocational training where they are taught marketable skills, than this huge push to get every failed product of our public school systems into college to become proficient in how to hate and resist etc.
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Old June 30th, 2018, 08:51 AM   #50
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That's true. Now, how about social promotion? (kids with diplomas that can't read or do simple math) Classes that teach kids how to use the welfare system? Ebonics? (never happened but was really pushed in LA) Teaching social justice?

There are too many programs that use time to indoctrinate rather than instruct students and not enough teaching the skills necessary to be successful after they leave school. I'd rather see a program like Germany that gives students an additional 2 yrs of vocational training where they are taught marketable skills, than this huge push to get every failed product of our public school systems into college to become proficient in how to hate and resist etc.
That's what I am saying. For many their diplomas and degrees are their participation trophy.

But don't think I am in any way against academia for its own sake. Although our society has to lose this assumption that college is an automatic step from high school and recognize and support vocational training and apprenticeships. (Real ones, not the TV/Dotard type.)
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