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Old July 8th, 2018, 04:45 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by BubbaJones View Post
This is exactly the problem with people like PB. They are CONVINCED that they are right and EVERYONE who doesn't think the exact same way is wrong. They can't even get along with other Christians !! That's why there are something like 33,000 distinct denominations of Christianity in the world. And EACH ONE OF THEM is convinced that THEIR interpretation of the PARTS of the bible they chose to believe in constitutes the ONE TRUE religion.

They surrender all reason and logic when they adopt this stance. Their rationality becomes circular and self serving. At this point it become easier to to teach the proverbial pig to sing than get someone like PB to see anything that even hints at reason or logic.

When someone comes knocking at my door and then when go on to tell me I'm not saved , they are not the kind of Christians I want around me. I do not want zealots around me of any religion, I am a cradle RC and we do not do not carry the bible and quote from it like morons who walk door to door. I must say the Mormons boys are the most polite.

Keep your religion in the church or at home, but take your morals with you everywhere you go. I remember Sessions making a fool out of himself to quote a couple verses of the bible to justify the Trump admin of separating mother and child. What a fool.


I love the rebirth kind of Christian (not), they can be unborn at any time and get reborn again and again. Those who carry Christianity on their sleeve and sprout it from the rooftops, like the preachers on TV, are the least Christian there are, but people are needy and want a friend, and their friend is Jesus.
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Old July 8th, 2018, 06:43 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Ploughboy View Post
I do no research online. I spend for research materials. That is how serious research is done. I do only 1% of my research online and that's usually to hunt down books and references to books. You see, I have this obsessive hatred for fabricated quotations. I mean I really hate that shit! I have discovered that so much of what we read that is in quotations is not even real or authentic. So I buy all books needed so I can assure those who read my posts on social media or here on forums, that everything I cite from comes from existing, reputable sources. I seriously do hate those who fabricate quotations. That's one of the main reasons why I buy up all references. If you're wondering how I am able to snag quotes from the Qur'an and Sunnah so quickly in debates its because I have built large databases online. I carefully hand typed all that information in to the very best of my ability. I will probably build more databases in the future but not on FB. I'm moving all my databases from FB over to other social media cites. I will also be deleting my FB account in the near future. But I will be moving my Islamic databases over to MeWe soon; maybe even over to Minds where I also have large databases. I have these specifically for debates. I can go on my own database and locate the topic with search engine and quickly snag whatever quotes I need. But I had to do a whole lotta reading in order to build all these databases. That's a lot of books!
Then why did you use this fabricated quote?

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Originally Posted by Ploghboy View Post

In 1778, James Madison stated
Quote:
”We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God" (America's God And Country: Encyclopedia Of Quotations, William J.Federer, p.411).

Last edited by Nwolfe35; July 8th, 2018 at 06:45 AM.
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Old July 8th, 2018, 06:47 AM   #83
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In the Bible the word translated as slavery is also often translated as servant. My opinion slavery in ancient times was different and not as evil as what was practiced in America.
So slavery is ok as long as itís done by certain people?
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Old July 8th, 2018, 07:59 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
Are Christian teachings compatible with U.S. law?
Are the teachings of the bible a civil rights violation?
Does the bible hold any moral value that we Americans need?
Should Christian teachings be taught in schools?


This is obviously a parallel parody of another thread.
But to give some similar examples...

Bible endorsing slavery:
Ephesians 6
5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.

Bible endorsing misogyny:
1 Corinthians 14
34 Women[f] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

Bible commanding genocide:
"When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you may nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." Deuteronomy 7:1-2, NIV.
"...do not leave alive anything that breaths. Completely destroy them...as the Lord your God has commanded you..." Deuteronomy 20:16, NIV. 1
Here is the problem- culture is more important than the law. In the past we understood this and old textbooks surely use the bible for moral training, but in the past we also created an American myth and like the Greeks used gods, we use national heroes to advance the mythology. That was ended in 1958 and we destroyed our national heroes and the mythology and we left moral training solely to the authority of the bible. Now we are more like our WWII enemy, not having a culture to unite us, nor a mythology for moral judgment. That leaves only the law and divided Christian faiths with a history of warring against each other, for social order, and that was the problem in Nazi Germany. The point is, we destroyed ourselves when we stopped transmitting the culture we had. Human beings must have a culture for good moral judgment because reliance on the law destroys liberty and does not prevent immorality and crime.

Last edited by Athena; July 8th, 2018 at 08:07 AM.
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Old July 8th, 2018, 08:29 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Nwolfe35 View Post
Then why did you use this fabricated quote?
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ploghboy View Post

In 1778, James Madison stated
Quote:
ĒWe have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God" (America's God And Country: Encyclopedia Of Quotations, William J.Federer, p.411).
What is wrong with that quote? I sincerely want to know.
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Old July 8th, 2018, 08:43 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by deGanis View Post
Gosh, you live in a museum! And you have studied history for 15 years!!? My goodness. I canít compete with that, as all of my study of history has been at those notoriously ill informed liberal schools. So I imagine, that means I havenít studied history at all, right?

AND you have access to ALL source documents? You mean every one, ever, from every perspective? I very much doubt that. But actually you donít, because you then say that the ones you donít, you can get with one click (make up your mind would you) Internetís a wonderful thing though isnít it?

And you STILL donít get it. After all of that, all of your quotes donít PROVE anything, they are OPINIONS not FACTS. When you are ready to discuss facts, bring it on!
I wish everyone would take the Meyer Briggs personality test and everyone's score on the test went on member's information on the upper left-hand corner. We all perceive the world differently and each perspective is a valuable one. We get into trouble when we believe there is one valid perspective and there is only one truth and we think those who do not agree with us should be berated for being wrong.

Hail Hitler.

I am not opposed to identifying an opinion as an opinion and not a fact, but that is different from making a personal attack. If we do not understand that difference, there isn't much separating us from Nazi Germany.
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Old July 8th, 2018, 04:42 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Ploughboy View Post
Sounds reasonable to me but you fanatical atheists didn't mind attacking Christianity on the Islam discussion.
Take that up with those doing that.


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Originally Posted by Ploughboy View Post
All it takes is for some undecided person to read how atheists twist and distort and deliberately lie about the Bible and the undecided person becomes a Christian. Nobody wants to follow a lie and many people are becoming Christians now through atheistic skepticism on the Bible, seeing how inaccurate atheists are. Says very little about evolution theory.
And yet, you can't realize that's what you're doing in the Islam thread...


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Originally Posted by Ploughboy View Post
The Treaty of Tripoli was not about America or American law. Jefferson lied to the muslims so a treaty could be made. He knew enough about Islam to never trust them and just give them a bone to chew on. To even think that the U.S. was not founded on Judeo-Christian principles is to forcefully admit your ignorance of early American history.
It's amusing what lies you invent yourself to deny the truth...
It wasn't just Jefferson. It had unanimous ratification.

And our U.S. government was not founded on Judeo-Christianity.
Where in the Bible do you see three branches of government? Democracy?
Even the first amendment "freedom of religion" is something that is not found in the Bible where God's followers (when they were able to) would kill anybody of other religions they could...


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Originally Posted by Ploughboy View Post
The nation was not founded on atheism and Ben Franklin very clearly says.
You are stuck in a delusion that thinks it has to be founded on any religion.
Nobody is saying it was "founded on atheism".
Your mentality is like trying to proclaim geometry is founded on a religion. It's not. But you have a need to try to pretend your religion is bigger than it actually is...


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Originally Posted by Ploughboy View Post
So Europeans would read this pamphlet and leave Europe because they wanted to get away from atheists.
You are eternally creating stories for yourself to believe to pretend your religion is more important than it is.
You completely fail to comprehend what Benjamin Franklin was actually saying...
... so that persons may live to a great age in that country without having their piety shocked by meeting with either an atheist or an Infidel.
He was mocking false piety of people who are "shocked" by meeting atheists or infidels.
Franklin was distrustful of organized religion.


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Originally Posted by Ploughboy View Post
You're trying to say there was no wisdom behind the law, on moral philosophy that influenced our founders. You want me to believe they were all empty headed and of no persuasion. There is always a wisdom behind laws. The Bible was the wisdom of our laws. Atheism was unknown in America then so it definitely wasn't atheist think that founded this country!
You have serious problems with reading comprehension. You invent stories out of convenience and wouldn't know the truth if it bit you.

a) No. I am definitively NOT saying there was no wisdom behind the law.
b) No. I am not saying there was no wisdom in the actual moral philosophy that our founding fathers used. I am saying that philosophy was not Christianity.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ploughboy View Post
In 1778, James Madison stated:
NWolfe35 already proved this quote is a lie.
Is teaching the Bible compatible with U.S. law?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ploughboy View Post
Shortly after signing the Declaration of Independence, a committee was appointed to draft a seal for the newly united states which would express the spirit of the nation. Thomas Jefferson proposed:
Deist Thomas Jefferson, on June 17, 1804, in a letter to Henry Fry, wrote:
President Thomas Jefferson, a deist, on March 4, 1805, offered A National Prayer for Peace:
On November 4, 1820, deist Thomas Jefferson wrote to Jared Sparks,
Pointing out rejected attempts does nothing to prove your cause.
The fact that they were rejected should tell you something...

Additionally, one major failing of such discussions on the part of the people claiming "country founded on Christianity" is they too often confuse a founding father being a Christian with the country being founded on Christianity.

If somebody invents a computer and that somebody happens to be Christian, does that automatically mean the computer was founded on Christianity?
No.

But too often, that's the approach that many apologetics take.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ploughboy View Post
Noah Webster, the great American educator, stated concerning education:
Again, a person being Christian is not the same thing as the country founded on Christianity.
There are people who are Christians who believe in separation of church and state. Noah Webster was one of them.


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Originally Posted by Ploughboy View Post
You were well answered in post #15 of this topic. There is no "endorsement" of slavery. You are tying to force a meaning into the text that isn't there.
And I responded to your post #15 disproving your claims.
But now you want to pretend you have proven your point while dropping the points refuting your claims...



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Originally Posted by Ploughboy View Post
Well illiteracy is also an innate evil that you fail to recognize. Had you studied history you would have learned that it was William Wilberforce, who, though his sermons taken from the Bible, abolished slavery in both Europe and America. But you don't read that stuff because they don't have real history on atheist sites.
There are Christians who fought for and against slavery.
That means nothing compared to the fact that the bible endorses slavery.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ploughboy View Post
I never said anything to the contrary. The text is clear without any commentaries. But you answer your own skepticism by quoting You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men. That does not look like an endorsement of slavery to me!

Are you even listening to me?
"slaves of men" is not talking about actual slavery, but rather people who would be slaves to the desires of sinful man nature and this world.

The commentaries I pointed to demonstrated this quite clearly.
But you want to lie and pretend it's literally talking about slavery...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ploughboy View Post
It says that where the spirit of the Lord is, there is also liberty. The first clause is spirit, the second clause, being the outcome of obedience to the Lord, leads to liberty in mind, spirit and flesh. We are not Christians in spirit only but also in the flesh as we live out our lives on earth.
And thus your commentary demonstrates it was not talking about literal slavery. As such, it was irrelevant to the point I made.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ploughboy View Post
It was the sermons of William Wilberforce that abolished slavery in both Europe and the United States. President Lincoln. a Christian, along with his Christian administration, sent an army of mostly all Christians to fight to abolish slavery and to save the Union.
Again, you confuse individuals saying their are Christian with an idea being founded in the Bible.
These are two entirely different concepts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ploughboy View Post
My reputation is very good and I am well known to never ever tell a lie among those who know me well. So your forceful assumptions are a mere attempt to save your lost arguments.
You really are deluding yourself about your self-image then.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ploughboy View Post
I never said anything about certain Bible passages being rejected in my speech. You have selective reading disorder.
No. You have a selective reading disorder.
I never said you said anything about that.
I was the one pointing out you were doing that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ploughboy View Post
God did not want his people to sit around all day playing video games and smoking pot. Had the Israelites lived like liberals today they would have ceased to be a people. God had much bigger plans than that. The Torah is also very clear that the Israelites were to fight only without the borders God allowed for them. That would be the small tiny little country of Israel which is the size of the State of New Hampshire. Doesn't sound like God wanted them to conquer the world. They fought for a small patch of land which everyone in the world right now seems to want to take away from the Jews. God has a way of exposing the foolishness of men.
You sure do blather on a lot without actually addressing the point.
The point was that the bible endorsed genocide repeatedly. Commanded it.
You attempting to justify that is definitively not repudiating that fact.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ploughboy View Post
The Israelites are called a "stiff necked people" by God on more than one occasion because of their disobedience.
"Disobedience"...
The apologetic excuse for why they won or lost...
They won? They had god's favor.
They lost? It was their fault (and not their god's) that they lost.
It's the same mindset adopted by abused housewives who psychologically can't break free. Their husband beats them and it's their fault (not their husbands).
When they aren't beaten, it's because they've finally been good...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ploughboy View Post
The Israelites never tried to conquer any nations! Read the Bible before joining a forum. God did not make supermen out of Israel, He made a covenant with Israel and part of that covenant was for them to obey it. They refused to obey the covenant so they were conquered over and over again until finally in A.D.70 they were completely destroyed. All this is mentioned first in the Torah. The Torah antedates the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem. Its very solid prophecy.
Again, your response fails to repudiate what I actually said.
The bible is filled with examples of the Israelites / Hebrews killing other nations off.
The New Testament starts in an established period where the Romans made sure they could never rise up again. Otherwise they would have continued the cycle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ploughboy View Post
I have quoted only from the Torah to prove to you that everything that has happened to the Jews throughout history has been prophesied to happen right there from the very start. God knew they were a stiff necked people and would eventually push God beyond His tolerance and He was lash out and strike Israel through abandoning them over to their enemies. There is more Scripture that goes with this but I am sticking just in the Torah to prove to you that your position about the Jews is very wrong.
Nowhere in the Torah does it say God made the Jews supermen.
You're babbling with nothing that refutes what I actually said.
Another attempted diversion on your part...
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Old July 8th, 2018, 07:32 PM   #88
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LOL @ all the Christians who actually bit at this troll thread
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Old July 9th, 2018, 01:49 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Athena View Post
What is wrong with that quote? I sincerely want to know.
It is not found in any of Madisonís writings or speeches.
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Old July 10th, 2018, 10:05 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Nwolfe35 View Post
It is not found in any of Madisonís writings or speeches.
Nothing wrong with the quote. It is attributed to Madison and found in all historical works.
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