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Old November 18th, 2012, 06:16 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Nienna View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nwolfe35' timestamp='1353289573' post='438993

[quote name='Nienna' timestamp='1353289149' post='438992']

[quote name='Nwolfe35' timestamp='1353288689' post='438991']

[quote name='Bookworm' timestamp='1353281877' post='438967']

[quote name='Nwolfe35' timestamp='1353245287' post='438880']

[quote name='Nienna' timestamp='1353231354' post='438860']

[quote name='Contemptible' timestamp='1353180384' post='438817']

On the contrary atheists may not be any more moral than religious people, but we are still moral and much less a-moral. true there are a lot of religious charities but there are also a lot of non religious charities. Further more the vast majority of wars were started because of religion. May I point out that 9-11 was a religious act, so were the crusades. Slavery was abolished based on moral values not religious values, there is a difference. Also you make a common logical fallacy by claiming that all charities founded by religious people were founded because they were religious. Many charities are done by religious people but are not done for a religious purpose. Again there is a very important difference. You also seem to forget an important point. The vast majority of scientific advancements occurred because of science not religion. How many discoveries were made because of religion? Think about it, the basis of human advancement even human evolution have occurred, not because of religion, but because science. Atheists are no less moral than any religion.

P.S. Communism has not led to the loss of a single human life. It was the people who led the communist countries that inflicted these cruelties. Communism is an economic theory just like capitalism. None of those "ideologies" you mentioned are secular. In fact Hitler was religious. So don't you dare try to blame the holocaust on atheists.


To say that communism has not led to the loss of a single human life is like saying that guns don't kill people, people kill people. Technically no ideology has killed people, and neither has any religion.



But there has been plenty of lives taken in the name of communism, true it does not necessary mean there is a flaw in the ideology. I think many communistic ideas are good, but if the method to get them through is force, manipulation, brainwashing, punisment and elliminating option then communism is not a good ideology and any bad ideology if followed can "lead to loss of human life" indeed following good ideologies can too.


I think many Christian ideas are good, but if the method to get them through is force (the crusades), manipulation (bible "interpertation"), brainwashing (Sunday School), punishment (The Spanish Inquisition) and eliminating option (laws against heresy and blasphamy) then Christianity is not a good ideology.



Just saying.

[/quote]Sunday School? You're picking on Sunday School? As a Sunday School teacher, I'd have to say that if Sunday School is "brainwashing," then absolutely any form of education would be brainwashing as well. Wouldn't it be?

[/quote]



No, because most forms of education are the teaching of facts that have been well documented. We don't use public schools to teach that the US government is hiding a flying saucer in Roswell NM.



When you teach opinions (and the existence of God is an opinion) as facts, especially to young children who have yet to learn to differentiate between the two, then that is a form of brainwashing.

[/quote]



They do plenty of teaching and brainwashing in public schools too at least here in Sweden, believe me I know I am a teacher



Bookworm is right.

[/quote]



Bookworm is (I believe) an American....so am I, so we are talking about American schools. I'm sorry that they brainwash children in Sweden but that really has nothing to do with our conversation.



There is some brainwashing that goes on in American schools....more than I would like, less than what the right wing conspiracy nuts would have you believe.



But the point I am making is that Sunday School is nothing BUT brainwashing.....the only thing taught in Sunday School is religion.....and religion is matter of opinion and faith, not fact.....so it is a form of brainwashing.

[/quote]



You have contradicted yourself again. First you say that brainwashing children in sweden has nothing to do with your converstation of brainwashing in american schools. This is not true as both are subject of brainwashing in schools.



Second you go on and admit that there is some brainwashing in american schools, which proves even more relation between this and my point on swedish schools a point which shows Bookworm was right just like I said.



Third I have actually lived in America where my sister lives now and she too can verify american brainwashing in schools. Fourth your statement that sunday school is nothing but brainwashing is again false and a contradiction. I have been in sunday school and they also teach secular ideas so there is absolutely no way that you statement can be true as truth don't contradict itself. When have you last been to Sunday school?



Fifth sunday school is not religion, but rather a class held on sundays which can teach both religion and things not related to religion, so you are wrong about saying that the only thing taught in sunday school is religion too.



Sixt religion is not just a matter of faith and opinion, quite a lot of religion shows no faith at all and is teaching what you might call facts taught in school, which as I have shown before in reality is also based on faith.



Seventh faith has nothing to do with brainwashing whatsoever. Faith is acting on your beliefs. Good grief Nwolfe you are wrong on at least 7 points in your post, no wonder none of our discussions go anywhere you are simply far too ignorant on the subject of religion to defend truth regarding it.



And if Bookworm is not an american there is not much in your post which is true at all.

[/quote]



I don't know what Sunday School is like in Sweden. Here, in the United States, I attended Sunday Schools from the time I was six until I was 18 and it was nothing but religion.



Faith is belief in something you have no proof for. You can define it any way you want, but that doesn't change the fact that when I talk about faith that is what I mean.



If you believe that religion is not all about faith (especailly the Christian religion since that is the predominant one in the United States) then I invite you to share with us what parts of religion are NOT faith....I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for your answer however.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 06:18 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nienna View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by hot dragon' timestamp='1353292834' post='438995

[quote name='Nienna' timestamp='1353285433' post='438988']

You really ought to use a dictionary more often. The word animal is used to discribe far more than a biological classification system, which I don't agree with.

So no luck needed what you are saying is not true, but I will not take from you that you are an animal if you wish to be though I would judge better of you myself.



Being a mammal and an animal is not the same thing.



Animal:

http://www.thefreedi...nary.com/animal

1. A multicellular organism of the kingdom Animalia, differing from plants in certain typical characteristics such as capacity for locomotion, nonphotosynthetic metabolism, pronounced response to stimuli, restricted growth, and fixed bodily structure. (what you are referring to)

2. An animal organism other than a human, especially a mammal.(What I am referring to)

3. A person who behaves in a bestial or brutish manner.(What I am referring to)

4. A human considered with respect to his or her physical, as opposed to spiritual, nature.(What I am referring to)

5. A person having a specified aptitude or set of interestsWhat I am referring to)



Now truth can not contradict itself, and we have just found an example of how the word animal can have two contrary meanings, this is likely because the original meaning of animal which is closer to the one I am using has been changed with evolution theories etc. making it a contradiction. I don't believe that man evolved from apes, fish or other animals and unless you can prove this you have not proven what you have claimed to be true.



But I do believe an animal is an organism OTHER THAN A HUMAN.
you like dictionaries. shame you dont understand them. there are different ways of using a word, depending on context and culture and dictionaries include many definitions trying to capture the many and varied ways the word is used. the term animal is a biology term. we should use the biological definiton of what an animal is and that is definition 1.



evolution of man from an ape like ancestor is well established. if you think this is not the case you are outright wrong.

you are a mammal and an animal. if you think this is not the case you are absolutely ignorant of biology.




And evolution of man is no better established than the existance of God, but I am not going into this with you again for you can't handle the truth.



[/quote]



If that is what you believe then there really is no point in continuing this discussion. That statement alone shows that you are not willing to accept facts if they contradict your belief.



http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolib...0_0_0/lines_01
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Old November 18th, 2012, 06:33 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nwolfe35 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nienna' timestamp='1353293470' post='438996

[quote name='Nwolfe35' timestamp='1353289573' post='438993']

[quote name='Nienna' timestamp='1353289149' post='438992']

[quote name='Nwolfe35' timestamp='1353288689' post='438991']

[quote name='Bookworm' timestamp='1353281877' post='438967']

[quote name='Nwolfe35' timestamp='1353245287' post='438880']

[quote name='Nienna' timestamp='1353231354' post='438860']

[quote name='Contemptible' timestamp='1353180384' post='438817']

On the contrary atheists may not be any more moral than religious people, but we are still moral and much less a-moral. true there are a lot of religious charities but there are also a lot of non religious charities. Further more the vast majority of wars were started because of religion. May I point out that 9-11 was a religious act, so were the crusades. Slavery was abolished based on moral values not religious values, there is a difference. Also you make a common logical fallacy by claiming that all charities founded by religious people were founded because they were religious. Many charities are done by religious people but are not done for a religious purpose. Again there is a very important difference. You also seem to forget an important point. The vast majority of scientific advancements occurred because of science not religion. How many discoveries were made because of religion? Think about it, the basis of human advancement even human evolution have occurred, not because of religion, but because science. Atheists are no less moral than any religion.

P.S. Communism has not led to the loss of a single human life. It was the people who led the communist countries that inflicted these cruelties. Communism is an economic theory just like capitalism. None of those "ideologies" you mentioned are secular. In fact Hitler was religious. So don't you dare try to blame the holocaust on atheists.


To say that communism has not led to the loss of a single human life is like saying that guns don't kill people, people kill people. Technically no ideology has killed people, and neither has any religion.



But there has been plenty of lives taken in the name of communism, true it does not necessary mean there is a flaw in the ideology. I think many communistic ideas are good, but if the method to get them through is force, manipulation, brainwashing, punisment and elliminating option then communism is not a good ideology and any bad ideology if followed can "lead to loss of human life" indeed following good ideologies can too.


I think many Christian ideas are good, but if the method to get them through is force (the crusades), manipulation (bible "interpertation"), brainwashing (Sunday School), punishment (The Spanish Inquisition) and eliminating option (laws against heresy and blasphamy) then Christianity is not a good ideology.



Just saying.

[/quote]Sunday School? You're picking on Sunday School? As a Sunday School teacher, I'd have to say that if Sunday School is "brainwashing," then absolutely any form of education would be brainwashing as well. Wouldn't it be?

[/quote]



No, because most forms of education are the teaching of facts that have been well documented. We don't use public schools to teach that the US government is hiding a flying saucer in Roswell NM.



When you teach opinions (and the existence of God is an opinion) as facts, especially to young children who have yet to learn to differentiate between the two, then that is a form of brainwashing.

[/quote]



They do plenty of teaching and brainwashing in public schools too at least here in Sweden, believe me I know I am a teacher



Bookworm is right.

[/quote]



Bookworm is (I believe) an American....so am I, so we are talking about American schools. I'm sorry that they brainwash children in Sweden but that really has nothing to do with our conversation.



There is some brainwashing that goes on in American schools....more than I would like, less than what the right wing conspiracy nuts would have you believe.



But the point I am making is that Sunday School is nothing BUT brainwashing.....the only thing taught in Sunday School is religion.....and religion is matter of opinion and faith, not fact.....so it is a form of brainwashing.

[/quote]



You have contradicted yourself again. First you say that brainwashing children in sweden has nothing to do with your converstation of brainwashing in american schools. This is not true as both are subject of brainwashing in schools.



Second you go on and admit that there is some brainwashing in american schools, which proves even more relation between this and my point on swedish schools a point which shows Bookworm was right just like I said.



Third I have actually lived in America where my sister lives now and she too can verify american brainwashing in schools. Fourth your statement that sunday school is nothing but brainwashing is again false and a contradiction. I have been in sunday school and they also teach secular ideas so there is absolutely no way that you statement can be true as truth don't contradict itself. When have you last been to Sunday school?



Fifth sunday school is not religion, but rather a class held on sundays which can teach both religion and things not related to religion, so you are wrong about saying that the only thing taught in sunday school is religion too.



Sixt religion is not just a matter of faith and opinion, quite a lot of religion shows no faith at all and is teaching what you might call facts taught in school, which as I have shown before in reality is also based on faith.



Seventh faith has nothing to do with brainwashing whatsoever. Faith is acting on your beliefs. Good grief Nwolfe you are wrong on at least 7 points in your post, no wonder none of our discussions go anywhere you are simply far too ignorant on the subject of religion to defend truth regarding it.



And if Bookworm is not an american there is not much in your post which is true at all.

[/quote]



I don't know what Sunday School is like in Sweden. Here, in the United States, I attended Sunday Schools from the time I was six until I was 18 and it was nothing but religion.



Faith is belief in something you have no proof for. You can define it any way you want, but that doesn't change the fact that when I talk about faith that is what I mean.



If you believe that religion is not all about faith (especailly the Christian religion since that is the predominant one in the United States) then I invite you to share with us what parts of religion are NOT faith....I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for your answer however.

[/quote]



I never said religion is not about faith, but that is not what YOU said. I have been to Sunday school in the US as well and it is not much different from Swedish sunday school, that you in a few times of going found nothing but religion taught when going there before you were 18 which is what 30-40 years ago?



Does not say much at all I doubt you can even remember what topics they discussed and scriptures they used. But I guess the entire universe centers around you and only what YOU experience and remember is real? Give me a break.



That you neglected to argue my 7 points I suppose means you concede the argument on those points? You are a waste of time debating, you are too ignorant to know the meaning of what you say and too arrogant to believe in evidences, learn or concede being wrong. It is amazing that you think you know so much about religion considering your lack of experience, evidence, faith and ability to understand it.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 06:34 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nwolfe35 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nienna' timestamp='1353289149' post='438992

[quote name='Nwolfe35' timestamp='1353288689' post='438991']

[quote name='Bookworm' timestamp='1353281877' post='438967']

[quote name='Nwolfe35' timestamp='1353245287' post='438880']

[quote name='Nienna' timestamp='1353231354' post='438860']

[quote name='Contemptible' timestamp='1353180384' post='438817']

On the contrary atheists may not be any more moral than religious people, but we are still moral and much less a-moral. true there are a lot of religious charities but there are also a lot of non religious charities. Further more the vast majority of wars were started because of religion. May I point out that 9-11 was a religious act, so were the crusades. Slavery was abolished based on moral values not religious values, there is a difference. Also you make a common logical fallacy by claiming that all charities founded by religious people were founded because they were religious. Many charities are done by religious people but are not done for a religious purpose. Again there is a very important difference. You also seem to forget an important point. The vast majority of scientific advancements occurred because of science not religion. How many discoveries were made because of religion? Think about it, the basis of human advancement even human evolution have occurred, not because of religion, but because science. Atheists are no less moral than any religion.

P.S. Communism has not led to the loss of a single human life. It was the people who led the communist countries that inflicted these cruelties. Communism is an economic theory just like capitalism. None of those "ideologies" you mentioned are secular. In fact Hitler was religious. So don't you dare try to blame the holocaust on atheists.


To say that communism has not led to the loss of a single human life is like saying that guns don't kill people, people kill people. Technically no ideology has killed people, and neither has any religion.



But there has been plenty of lives taken in the name of communism, true it does not necessary mean there is a flaw in the ideology. I think many communistic ideas are good, but if the method to get them through is force, manipulation, brainwashing, punisment and elliminating option then communism is not a good ideology and any bad ideology if followed can "lead to loss of human life" indeed following good ideologies can too.


I think many Christian ideas are good, but if the method to get them through is force (the crusades), manipulation (bible "interpertation"), brainwashing (Sunday School), punishment (The Spanish Inquisition) and eliminating option (laws against heresy and blasphamy) then Christianity is not a good ideology.



Just saying.

[/quote]Sunday School? You're picking on Sunday School? As a Sunday School teacher, I'd have to say that if Sunday School is "brainwashing," then absolutely any form of education would be brainwashing as well. Wouldn't it be?

[/quote]



No, because most forms of education are the teaching of facts that have been well documented. We don't use public schools to teach that the US government is hiding a flying saucer in Roswell NM.



When you teach opinions (and the existence of God is an opinion) as facts, especially to young children who have yet to learn to differentiate between the two, then that is a form of brainwashing.

[/quote]



They do plenty of teaching and brainwashing in public schools too at least here in Sweden, believe me I know I am a teacher



Bookworm is right.

[/quote]



Bookworm is (I believe) an American....so am I, so we are talking about American schools. I'm sorry that they brainwash children in Sweden but that really has nothing to do with our conversation.



There is some brainwashing that goes on in American schools....more than I would like, less than what the right wing conspiracy nuts would have you believe.



But the point I am making is that Sunday School is nothing BUT brainwashing.....the only thing taught in Sunday School is religion.....and religion is matter of opinion and faith, not fact.....so it is a form of brainwashing.

[/quote]So are people getting brainwashed when they read newspaper editorial pages, which are opinions?
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Old November 18th, 2012, 06:49 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nwolfe35 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nienna' timestamp='1353294682' post='438999

[quote name='hot dragon' timestamp='1353292834' post='438995']

[quote name='Nienna' timestamp='1353285433' post='438988']

You really ought to use a dictionary more often. The word animal is used to discribe far more than a biological classification system, which I don't agree with.

So no luck needed what you are saying is not true, but I will not take from you that you are an animal if you wish to be though I would judge better of you myself.



Being a mammal and an animal is not the same thing.



Animal:

http://www.thefreedi...nary.com/animal

1. A multicellular organism of the kingdom Animalia, differing from plants in certain typical characteristics such as capacity for locomotion, nonphotosynthetic metabolism, pronounced response to stimuli, restricted growth, and fixed bodily structure. (what you are referring to)

2. An animal organism other than a human, especially a mammal.(What I am referring to)

3. A person who behaves in a bestial or brutish manner.(What I am referring to)

4. A human considered with respect to his or her physical, as opposed to spiritual, nature.(What I am referring to)

5. A person having a specified aptitude or set of interestsWhat I am referring to)



Now truth can not contradict itself, and we have just found an example of how the word animal can have two contrary meanings, this is likely because the original meaning of animal which is closer to the one I am using has been changed with evolution theories etc. making it a contradiction. I don't believe that man evolved from apes, fish or other animals and unless you can prove this you have not proven what you have claimed to be true.



But I do believe an animal is an organism OTHER THAN A HUMAN.
you like dictionaries. shame you dont understand them. there are different ways of using a word, depending on context and culture and dictionaries include many definitions trying to capture the many and varied ways the word is used. the term animal is a biology term. we should use the biological definiton of what an animal is and that is definition 1.



evolution of man from an ape like ancestor is well established. if you think this is not the case you are outright wrong.

you are a mammal and an animal. if you think this is not the case you are absolutely ignorant of biology.




And evolution of man is no better established than the existance of God, but I am not going into this with you again for you can't handle the truth.



[/quote]



If that is what you believe then there really is no point in continuing this discussion. That statement alone shows that you are not willing to accept facts if they contradict your belief.



http://evolution.ber.../0_0_0/lines_01

[/quote]



Well thats the difference between you and me you think you have a fact with one statement alone, while I first call something a fact after a lot of evidence and having investigated the opposite arguments as well.



You have still not answered the 7 points I showed you wrong on or what I showed you wrong about on faith, and until you do so you are right there is no point in discussion with you.



For you make baseless claims of facts on one statement alone, believe you know truths based on few experiences more than 30 years ago, and think you know fact without any research of your own and without even investigating the argument you blindly accept or the arguments against it. You are so fast to conclude you know things and yet you can not prove any of it and rarely even back any of it up with any evidence.



On top of this when evidence is provided against you, you just ignore it and pretend it never happened. You are an expect at brainwashing yourself, but that is about the only thing I have seen evidence of you being good at.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 08:01 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bookworm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nwolfe35' timestamp='1353289573' post='438993

[quote name='Nienna' timestamp='1353289149' post='438992']

[quote name='Nwolfe35' timestamp='1353288689' post='438991']

[quote name='Bookworm' timestamp='1353281877' post='438967']

[quote name='Nwolfe35' timestamp='1353245287' post='438880']

[quote name='Nienna' timestamp='1353231354' post='438860']

[quote name='Contemptible' timestamp='1353180384' post='438817']

On the contrary atheists may not be any more moral than religious people, but we are still moral and much less a-moral. true there are a lot of religious charities but there are also a lot of non religious charities. Further more the vast majority of wars were started because of religion. May I point out that 9-11 was a religious act, so were the crusades. Slavery was abolished based on moral values not religious values, there is a difference. Also you make a common logical fallacy by claiming that all charities founded by religious people were founded because they were religious. Many charities are done by religious people but are not done for a religious purpose. Again there is a very important difference. You also seem to forget an important point. The vast majority of scientific advancements occurred because of science not religion. How many discoveries were made because of religion? Think about it, the basis of human advancement even human evolution have occurred, not because of religion, but because science. Atheists are no less moral than any religion.

P.S. Communism has not led to the loss of a single human life. It was the people who led the communist countries that inflicted these cruelties. Communism is an economic theory just like capitalism. None of those "ideologies" you mentioned are secular. In fact Hitler was religious. So don't you dare try to blame the holocaust on atheists.


To say that communism has not led to the loss of a single human life is like saying that guns don't kill people, people kill people. Technically no ideology has killed people, and neither has any religion.



But there has been plenty of lives taken in the name of communism, true it does not necessary mean there is a flaw in the ideology. I think many communistic ideas are good, but if the method to get them through is force, manipulation, brainwashing, punisment and elliminating option then communism is not a good ideology and any bad ideology if followed can "lead to loss of human life" indeed following good ideologies can too.


I think many Christian ideas are good, but if the method to get them through is force (the crusades), manipulation (bible "interpertation"), brainwashing (Sunday School), punishment (The Spanish Inquisition) and eliminating option (laws against heresy and blasphamy) then Christianity is not a good ideology.



Just saying.

[/quote]Sunday School? You're picking on Sunday School? As a Sunday School teacher, I'd have to say that if Sunday School is "brainwashing," then absolutely any form of education would be brainwashing as well. Wouldn't it be?

[/quote]



No, because most forms of education are the teaching of facts that have been well documented. We don't use public schools to teach that the US government is hiding a flying saucer in Roswell NM.



When you teach opinions (and the existence of God is an opinion) as facts, especially to young children who have yet to learn to differentiate between the two, then that is a form of brainwashing.

[/quote]



They do plenty of teaching and brainwashing in public schools too at least here in Sweden, believe me I know I am a teacher



Bookworm is right.

[/quote]



Bookworm is (I believe) an American....so am I, so we are talking about American schools. I'm sorry that they brainwash children in Sweden but that really has nothing to do with our conversation.



There is some brainwashing that goes on in American schools....more than I would like, less than what the right wing conspiracy nuts would have you believe.



But the point I am making is that Sunday School is nothing BUT brainwashing.....the only thing taught in Sunday School is religion.....and religion is matter of opinion and faith, not fact.....so it is a form of brainwashing.

[/quote]So are people getting brainwashed when they read newspaper editorial pages, which are opinions?

[/quote]



Not when they are adults.



You put a child in a room with a "teacher" then that child is, for the most part, not going to question a thing that teacher says.



There is a quote, often attributed to St. Francis Xavier (founder of the Jesuits) that says something like "Give me the child until he is seven and I will give you the man".



Thomas Jefferson was opposed to the teaching of religion until someone had attained the age of reason.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 08:04 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nienna View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nwolfe35' timestamp='1353295088' post='439001

[quote name='Nienna' timestamp='1353294682' post='438999']

[quote name='hot dragon' timestamp='1353292834' post='438995']

[quote name='Nienna' timestamp='1353285433' post='438988']

You really ought to use a dictionary more often. The word animal is used to discribe far more than a biological classification system, which I don't agree with.

So no luck needed what you are saying is not true, but I will not take from you that you are an animal if you wish to be though I would judge better of you myself.



Being a mammal and an animal is not the same thing.



Animal:

http://www.thefreedi...nary.com/animal

1. A multicellular organism of the kingdom Animalia, differing from plants in certain typical characteristics such as capacity for locomotion, nonphotosynthetic metabolism, pronounced response to stimuli, restricted growth, and fixed bodily structure. (what you are referring to)

2. An animal organism other than a human, especially a mammal.(What I am referring to)

3. A person who behaves in a bestial or brutish manner.(What I am referring to)

4. A human considered with respect to his or her physical, as opposed to spiritual, nature.(What I am referring to)

5. A person having a specified aptitude or set of interestsWhat I am referring to)



Now truth can not contradict itself, and we have just found an example of how the word animal can have two contrary meanings, this is likely because the original meaning of animal which is closer to the one I am using has been changed with evolution theories etc. making it a contradiction. I don't believe that man evolved from apes, fish or other animals and unless you can prove this you have not proven what you have claimed to be true.



But I do believe an animal is an organism OTHER THAN A HUMAN.
you like dictionaries. shame you dont understand them. there are different ways of using a word, depending on context and culture and dictionaries include many definitions trying to capture the many and varied ways the word is used. the term animal is a biology term. we should use the biological definiton of what an animal is and that is definition 1.



evolution of man from an ape like ancestor is well established. if you think this is not the case you are outright wrong.

you are a mammal and an animal. if you think this is not the case you are absolutely ignorant of biology.




And evolution of man is no better established than the existance of God, but I am not going into this with you again for you can't handle the truth.



[/quote]



If that is what you believe then there really is no point in continuing this discussion. That statement alone shows that you are not willing to accept facts if they contradict your belief.



http://evolution.ber.../0_0_0/lines_01

[/quote]



Well thats the difference between you and me you think you have a fact with one statement alone, while I first call something a fact after a lot of evidence and having investigated the opposite arguments as well.



You have still not answered the 7 points I showed you wrong on or what I showed you wrong about on faith, and until you do so you are right there is no point in discussion with you.



For you make baseless claims of facts on one statement alone, believe you know truths based on few experiences more than 30 years ago, and think you know fact without any research of your own and without even investigating the argument you blindly accept or the arguments against it. You are so fast to conclude you know things and yet you can not prove any of it and rarely even back any of it up with any evidence.



On top of this when evidence is provided against you, you just ignore it and pretend it never happened. You are an expect at brainwashing yourself, but that is about the only thing I have seen evidence of you being good at.

[/quote]



I have a "fact" because 200 years of scientific investigation has provided proof of evolution....while 2,000 years of religious investigation has failed to provide one piece of evidence on the existence of God.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 08:32 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bookworm' timestamp='1353296075' post='439006

[quote name='Nwolfe35' timestamp='1353289573' post='438993']

[quote name='Nienna' timestamp='1353289149' post='438992']

[quote name='Nwolfe35' timestamp='1353288689' post='438991']

[quote name='Bookworm' timestamp='1353281877' post='438967']

[quote name='Nwolfe35' timestamp='1353245287' post='438880']

[quote name='Nienna' timestamp='1353231354' post='438860']

[quote name='Contemptible' timestamp='1353180384' post='438817']

On the contrary atheists may not be any more moral than religious people, but we are still moral and much less a-moral. true there are a lot of religious charities but there are also a lot of non religious charities. Further more the vast majority of wars were started because of religion. May I point out that 9-11 was a religious act, so were the crusades. Slavery was abolished based on moral values not religious values, there is a difference. Also you make a common logical fallacy by claiming that all charities founded by religious people were founded because they were religious. Many charities are done by religious people but are not done for a religious purpose. Again there is a very important difference. You also seem to forget an important point. The vast majority of scientific advancements occurred because of science not religion. How many discoveries were made because of religion? Think about it, the basis of human advancement even human evolution have occurred, not because of religion, but because science. Atheists are no less moral than any religion.

P.S. Communism has not led to the loss of a single human life. It was the people who led the communist countries that inflicted these cruelties. Communism is an economic theory just like capitalism. None of those "ideologies" you mentioned are secular. In fact Hitler was religious. So don't you dare try to blame the holocaust on atheists.


To say that communism has not led to the loss of a single human life is like saying that guns don't kill people, people kill people. Technically no ideology has killed people, and neither has any religion.



But there has been plenty of lives taken in the name of communism, true it does not necessary mean there is a flaw in the ideology. I think many communistic ideas are good, but if the method to get them through is force, manipulation, brainwashing, punisment and elliminating option then communism is not a good ideology and any bad ideology if followed can "lead to loss of human life" indeed following good ideologies can too.


I think many Christian ideas are good, but if the method to get them through is force (the crusades), manipulation (bible "interpertation"), brainwashing (Sunday School), punishment (The Spanish Inquisition) and eliminating option (laws against heresy and blasphamy) then Christianity is not a good ideology.



Just saying.

[/quote]Sunday School? You're picking on Sunday School? As a Sunday School teacher, I'd have to say that if Sunday School is "brainwashing," then absolutely any form of education would be brainwashing as well. Wouldn't it be?

[/quote]



No, because most forms of education are the teaching of facts that have been well documented. We don't use public schools to teach that the US government is hiding a flying saucer in Roswell NM.



When you teach opinions (and the existence of God is an opinion) as facts, especially to young children who have yet to learn to differentiate between the two, then that is a form of brainwashing.

[/quote]



They do plenty of teaching and brainwashing in public schools too at least here in Sweden, believe me I know I am a teacher



Bookworm is right.

[/quote]



Bookworm is (I believe) an American....so am I, so we are talking about American schools. I'm sorry that they brainwash children in Sweden but that really has nothing to do with our conversation.



There is some brainwashing that goes on in American schools....more than I would like, less than what the right wing conspiracy nuts would have you believe.



But the point I am making is that Sunday School is nothing BUT brainwashing.....the only thing taught in Sunday School is religion.....and religion is matter of opinion and faith, not fact.....so it is a form of brainwashing.

[/quote]So are people getting brainwashed when they read newspaper editorial pages, which are opinions?

[/quote]



Not when they are adults.



You put a child in a room with a "teacher" then that child is, for the most part, not going to question a thing that teacher says.



There is a quote, often attributed to St. Francis Xavier (founder of the Jesuits) that says something like "Give me the child until he is seven and I will give you the man".



Thomas Jefferson was opposed to the teaching of religion until someone had attained the age of reason.

[/quote]My church has Sunday School classes for ALL ages, including adults, so I didn't see any age differentiation in your initial comment that Sunday School is brainwashing. To me, Sunday School is simply classes that teach what is in the Bible. The accounts of Jacob and Esau, for example, are in the Bible, so teaching people that those accounts are in the Bible is not brainwashing, since it IS a fact that those accounts are in the Bible. Based on your logic here, ANY schooling before the age of reason would be brainwashing, since the child would be too young to reason about whether they were being told the truth or not.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 08:50 PM   #59
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Prove that animal is a biology term.



And evolution of man is no better established than the existance of God,



to show how much I care about truth


you are hysterical.



animal is a biology term because.... it is a biology term. what the hell do you think animals are if not biological????



evolution is well and truly established as fact with abundand irrefutable evidence. god is completely theoretical with absolutely no evidence



you know so little about anything you cant recognise truth. i think you are right, further debate between us is pointless. these statements of yours illustrate the mind set i am arguing against andi know that mind set. i have no need for your pity or your prayers so dont bother.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 09:05 PM   #60
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My church has Sunday School classes for ALL ages, including adults, so I didn't see any age differentiation in your initial comment that Sunday School is brainwashing. To me, Sunday School is simply classes that teach what is in the Bible. The accounts of Jacob and Esau, for example, are in the Bible, so teaching people that those accounts are in the Bible is not brainwashing, since it IS a fact that those accounts are in the Bible. Based on your logic here, ANY schooling before the age of reason would be brainwashing, since the child would be too young to reason about whether they were being told the truth or not.


Sunday school does more than teach that the story of Esau and Jacob is in the bible, it teaches that the story is a historical fact.



Being taught about the Civil War, a well documented event, is one thing. Being taught the the Jews escaped bondage in Egypt, an event there is no evidence for, is something else.



Children are taught to believe in Santa, The Tooth Fairy and The Easter Bunny and they believe it because they don't have the intellectual skills to question it. This is what I mean by brainwashing.
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