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Old September 14th, 2015, 06:14 PM   #51
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You just responded to a post asking if god exists.

Does god exist?

Jimmy. What say you?
I say that in my opinion God exists.
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Old September 14th, 2015, 06:22 PM   #52
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No, what I am saying is that the rules put out by the God of Christianity, the ones that are actually about morality and the treatment of other human beings, have been figured out WITHOUT god.
As a historian, I haven't seen a lot of that except among a few gifted individuals. So I guess for some it's possible, but for the ignorant masses of society as a whole...? I just don't have that much faith in humanity. What you are describing looks more to me like "honor among thieves," or "the Pirates' Code," than like a general societal norm of what is clearly right and clearly wrong.

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The OTHER 10 Commandments, the ones that are strictly "religious" in nature (Don't worship other gods, don't take the Lord's name in vain, Don't work on the Sabbath) have nothing to do with morality. If someone wants to obey those Commandments then they are free to do so. Just don't think that because they are in YOUR holy book that they are somehow rules that everyone else has to follow.
The "religious" rules you are referring to were part of a unique covenant God had with the Hebrew people, not with the whole world. These were terms of a contract, which they failed to honor anyway, so in the end it doesn't matter.

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Cultures and societies that have never heard of Christianity have worked out the rules about killing and stealing and lying and they didn't need some story about a guy climbing a mountain and coming back with stone tablets to figure these things out.
I guess an example of that is the Code of Hammurabi, but have you actually read some of the moral laws he prescribed? "An eye for an eye..." "if a builder builds a house and it collapses and kills the owner's son, the builder must pay for it with the life of his own son..." Buddhists setting themselves on fire to protest an unjust regime in South Vietnam. And so forth and so forth? These "positive" examples are a far cry from the morality and justice laid out in the Judeo-Christian ethic we follow today.

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Yes there are people that haven't figured it out...but they are in the minority and they are why we have prisons. It's interesting to point out that atheists are UNDER represented in the prison population.
I know, Charles Manson was a religious quack who thought he was Jesus Christ. But I wonder how much of these numbers you produce, presuming they can be verified, is a result of a couple of additional factors: 1) Genuine professed Atheists are under-represented in the American population as a whole, in fact somewhere around 10%; 2) Often times when someone is incarcerated for a crime, they reach a point of repentance and turn to religion while behind bars in order to obtain some sense of absolution, so that the so-called "Christian" population behind bars becomes over-represented.

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But as I have said before, if you can't figure out right from wrong then what you lack is empathy not religion.
The only thing I would question here, in a society that has a traditional underlying religious conscience, is the level of clear difference. Perhaps it might be better to say that knowing right from wrong in America is a matter of religious empathy, and not try so hard to dichotomize.

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Yes my Christian upbringing DID have an affect on my moral convictions...but not in a good way. Before become an atheist my moral convictions included things like "homosexuality is a sin" and "not believing in god is evil". Since becoming an atheist I have looked at my moral convictions and kept the ones that can be arrived at by reason and tossed the ones that were there simply because "god said so"
I can understand and appreciate that. I have come to the same place in my moral convictions WITHOUT abandoning my core religious beliefs. Which sad to say, has turned me into a closet democrat and put me at odds with a contingency of more conservative believers, but tough noogies. I am what I am.

I appreciate talking with you.
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Old September 14th, 2015, 07:03 PM   #53
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As a historian, I haven't seen a lot of that except among a few gifted individuals. So I guess for some it's possible, but for the ignorant masses of society as a whole...? I just don't have that much faith in humanity. What you are describing looks more to me like "honor among thieves," or "the Pirates' Code," than like a general societal norm of what is clearly right and clearly wrong.



The "religious" rules you are referring to were part of a unique covenant God had with the Hebrew people, not with the whole world. These were terms of a contract, which they failed to honor anyway, so in the end it doesn't matter.



I guess an example of that is the Code of Hammurabi, but have you actually read some of the moral laws he prescribed? "An eye for an eye..." "if a builder builds a house and it collapses and kills the owner's son, the builder must pay for it with the life of his own son..." Buddhists setting themselves on fire to protest an unjust regime in South Vietnam. And so forth and so forth? These "positive" examples are a far cry from the morality and justice laid out in the Judeo-Christian ethic we follow today.



I know, Charles Manson was a religious quack who thought he was Jesus Christ. But I wonder how much of these numbers you produce, presuming they can be verified, is a result of a couple of additional factors: 1) Genuine professed Atheists are under-represented in the American population as a whole, in fact somewhere around 10%; 2) Often times when someone is incarcerated for a crime, they reach a point of repentance and turn to religion while behind bars in order to obtain some sense of absolution, so that the so-called "Christian" population behind bars becomes over-represented.



The only thing I would question here, in a society that has a traditional underlying religious conscience, is the level of clear difference. Perhaps it might be better to say that knowing right from wrong in America is a matter of religious empathy, and not try so hard to dichotomize.



I can understand and appreciate that. I have come to the same place in my moral convictions WITHOUT abandoning my core religious beliefs. Which sad to say, has turned me into a closet democrat and put me at odds with a contingency of more conservative believers, but tough noogies. I am what I am.

I appreciate talking with you.
All primates have a sense of fairness, it's not a human trait, it's something we had when we still had tails.....
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Old September 14th, 2015, 09:21 PM   #54
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All primates have a sense of fairness, it's not a human trait, it's something we had when we still had tails.....
And you know that for a fact because...?

Have you ever read Jane Goodall's account of her years of study observing behavior in chimpanzees? Apparently not, because her assessment of ape behavior reads like a twisted soap opera that the ratings czars would never allow on prime time TV. Murder, incest, rape, theft... yeah, some great sense of naturally inbred moral conviction. By the way, have they ever found a human specimen that actually had a tail?
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Old September 14th, 2015, 09:23 PM   #55
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And you know that for a fact because...?

Have you ever read Jane Goodall's account of her years of study observing behavior in chimpanzees? Apparently not, because her assessment of ape behavior reads like a twisted soap opera that the ratings czars would never allow on prime time TV. Murder, incest, rape, theft... yeah, some great sense of naturally inbred moral conviction. By the way, have they ever found a human specimen that actually had a tail?
Yeah, but they were southern chimps....so?
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Old September 14th, 2015, 09:25 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Asimov View Post
And you know that for a fact because...?

Have you ever read Jane Goodall's account of her years of study observing behavior in chimpanzees? Apparently not, because her assessment of ape behavior reads like a twisted soap opera that the ratings czars would never allow on prime time TV. Murder, incest, rape, theft... yeah, some great sense of naturally inbred moral conviction. By the way, have they ever found a human specimen that actually had a tail?
Have you watched this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dMoK48QGL8
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Old September 14th, 2015, 11:14 PM   #57
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And you know that for a fact because...?

Have you ever read Jane Goodall's account of her years of study observing behavior in chimpanzees? Apparently not, because her assessment of ape behavior reads like a twisted soap opera that the ratings czars would never allow on prime time TV. Murder, incest, rape, theft... yeah, some great sense of naturally inbred moral conviction. By the way, have they ever found a human specimen that actually had a tail?
Wow...those things sound like NOTHING you find in the human culture. <sarcasm>

Yeah, the "tail bone"
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Old September 14th, 2015, 11:15 PM   #58
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Priceless
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Old September 14th, 2015, 11:18 PM   #59
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As a historian, I haven't seen a lot of that except among a few gifted individuals.
i disagree. i think MOST people sort out their morality themselves, relying on modelling from parents and peer group. few people actually get their moral guidance by reading religious doctrine or listening to priests. those people who later in life DO read religious doctrine or listen to priests, will happily reinterpret it if it disagrees with their already determined morality.

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So I guess for some it's possible, but for the ignorant masses of society as a whole...? I just don't have that much faith in humanity. What you are describing looks more to me like "honor among thieves," or "the Pirates' Code," than like a general societal norm of what is clearly right and clearly wrong.
sometimes thats true, humans arent perfect.

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The "religious" rules you are referring to were part of a unique covenant God had with the Hebrew people, not with the whole world. These were terms of a contract, which they failed to honor anyway, so in the end it doesn't matter.
see, you are doing what i said. some of the ten commandments that jesus said you should follow

Jesus and the Ten Commandments
Does the New Testament Teach All Ten Commandments?

you find a way to disregard as they disagree with your previously determined morality.

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I guess an example of that is the Code of Hammurabi, but have you actually read some of the moral laws he prescribed? "An eye for an eye..." "if a builder builds a house and it collapses and kills the owner's son, the builder must pay for it with the life of his own son..." Buddhists setting themselves on fire to protest an unjust regime in South Vietnam. And so forth and so forth? These "positive" examples are a far cry from the morality and justice laid out in the Judeo-Christian ethic we follow today.
and keeping slaves is a far cry from morality of today, but jesus said it was ok. but you dont follow jesus on the issue of slavery, you make up your own mind.

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The only thing I would question here, in a society that has a traditional underlying religious conscience, is the level of clear difference. Perhaps it might be better to say that knowing right from wrong in America is a matter of religious empathy, and not try so hard to dichotomize.

I can understand and appreciate that. I have come to the same place in my moral convictions WITHOUT abandoning my core religious beliefs. Which sad to say, has turned me into a closet democrat and put me at odds with a contingency of more conservative believers, but tough noogies. I am what I am.
reading your words i sense you are working hard to bend your religion to fit your world view. i think you are (probably) a moral person. but i think you have decided independently how to pick right from wrong, and you stick to your own judgement. your religion sometimes tells you things like dont lie, dont kill, and you credit your religion with valuable moral guidance and insist it means exactly what it says. and when your religion tells you its ok to keep slaves, you insist that part does not mean exactly what it says.

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I appreciate talking with you.
i rudely pushed my way into your conversation with nwolfe35, i dont mean to put words in his mouth. i like talking to you too.
Thanks from LongWinded and Asimov
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Old September 15th, 2015, 01:23 PM   #60
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As a historian, I haven't seen a lot of that except among a few gifted individuals. So I guess for some it's possible, but for the ignorant masses of society as a whole...? I just don't have that much faith in humanity. What you are describing looks more to me like "honor among thieves," or "the Pirates' Code," than like a general societal norm of what is clearly right and clearly wrong.



The "religious" rules you are referring to were part of a unique covenant God had with the Hebrew people, not with the whole world. These were terms of a contract, which they failed to honor anyway, so in the end it doesn't matter.


I guess an example of that is the Code of Hammurabi, but have you actually read some of the moral laws he prescribed? "An eye for an eye..." "if a builder builds a house and it collapses and kills the owner's son, the builder must pay for it with the life of his own son..." Buddhists setting themselves on fire to protest an unjust regime in South Vietnam. And so forth and so forth? These "positive" examples are a far cry from the morality and justice laid out in the Judeo-Christian ethic we follow today.



I know, Charles Manson was a religious quack who thought he was Jesus Christ. But I wonder how much of these numbers you produce, presuming they can be verified, is a result of a couple of additional factors: 1) Genuine professed Atheists are under-represented in the American population as a whole, in fact somewhere around 10%; 2) Often times when someone is incarcerated for a crime, they reach a point of repentance and turn to religion while behind bars in order to obtain some sense of absolution, so that the so-called "Christian" population behind bars becomes over-represented.



The only thing I would question here, in a society that has a traditional underlying religious conscience, is the level of clear difference. Perhaps it might be better to say that knowing right from wrong in America is a matter of religious empathy, and not try so hard to dichotomize.

I can understand and appreciate that. I have come to the same place in my moral convictions WITHOUT abandoning my core religious beliefs. Which sad to say, has turned me into a closet democrat and put me at odds with a contingency of more conservative believers, but tough noogies. I am what I am.

I appreciate talking with you.
I am glad you added "we follow today" to your explanation of the good of Judeo- Christian morality, because until these people's bellies were full and they felt secure they worshipped a jealous, revengeful, punishing and, fearsome god, and had lives full of superstition and cruelity.

If it had not been for Zoroastrainism, and Greek philosophy Hellenizing the Jews, Christianity wouldn't have develop as it did.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism
Quote:
Besides the Zoroastrian diaspora, related mithraic religion is still practised amongst the Kurds. Both worship "Seven Angels" alongside the primary deity and have a high regard for the concept of truth.

Leading characteristics, such as messianism, the Golden Rule, heaven and hell, and free will influenced other religious systems, including Second Temple Judaism, Gnosticism, Christianity, and Islam.[2] In Zoroastrianism, the purpose in life is to "be among those who renew the world...to make the world progress towards perfection". Its basic maxims include:

Humata, Hukhta, Huvarshta, which mean: Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds.
There is only one path and that is the path of Truth.
Do the right thing because it is the right thing to do, and then all beneficial rewards will come to you also.
The most important texts of the religion are those of the Avesta, which includes the writings of Zoroaster known as the Gathas, enigmatic poems that define the religion's precepts, and the Yasna, the scripture. The full name by which Zarathushtra addressed the deity is, Ahura: The Lord Creator, and Mazda: Supremely Wise. He proclaimed that there is only one God, the singularly creative and sustaining force of the Universe. He also stated that human beings are given a right of choice, and because of cause and effect are also responsible for the consequences of their choices. Zoroasters teachings focused on responsibility, and did not introduce a devil, per se. The contesting force to Ahura Mazda was called Angra Mainyu, or angry spirit. Post-Zarathushtra scripture introduced the concept of the Devil, or Ahriman, which was effectively a personification of Angra Mainyu.[3]

The Christianity of Europe got cut off from the good stuff, after it took what it wanted from others and Christianized all the good stuff, leaving people to think something is more special about Christianity. That is a false Christian belief and a very offensive one.

Last edited by Athena; September 15th, 2015 at 01:26 PM.
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