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Old May 13th, 2017, 07:11 PM   #71
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I am skeptical of superlatives such as always and never, which generally do not represent proven fact, but merely opinion, be it well-reasoned or not. The statement "we cannot even make educated guesses" for example leaves room for debate, which is why we are having this dialogue.
In this case my superlatives are just the facts of the matter.

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Probabilities is a mathematical term and cannot be applied when looking st the question of gods and the origin of the universe. That is because no one knows the probabilities. It is IMPOSSIBLE to currently know anything about anything they might (or might not) exist outside of the universe or what might (or might not) have existed before the universe we inhabit came into existence. We can't even make "educated guesses". The best we can do is observe the universe as it is today and use what we know to extrapolate to the moments AFTER the creation of the universe. We have done that. In all of that data, in all the experiments we have run, in all of the hypothesis and theories we have developed we do not have one thing that points to a "God". We have much that we don't know but what we DO know does not point to a god.
Currently we have no way of knowing any of these things...that is not to say that someday we might (although I doubt it).

But with our current understanding of the universe we are limited to what we can know to what is in our universe. This leaves out any discussion about probabilities about Gods existing or not existing.

You are free to believe in a God...you are free to tell us why you think there is a God. However, the FACT of the matter is that you cannot say that you believe in one because you think it is more probable than any alternative because you can't know the probabilities and you can't know if there are any alternatives or what any alternative might be.
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Old May 13th, 2017, 07:32 PM   #72
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In this case my superlatives are just the facts of the matter.
That is also an opinion.

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You are free to believe in a God...you are free to tell us why you think there is a God. However, the FACT of the matter is that you cannot say that you believe in one because you think it is more probable than any alternative because you can't know the probabilities and you can't know if there are any alternatives or what any alternative might be.
Actually, I know by the law of entropy that order does not arise out of chaos without intelligent intervention. The probability that the universe came into order out of a big bang, without intelligent intervention is a mathematical absurdity. It is like insisting that the Louvre and all of its contents resulted from an explosion in a paint factory. For me, it is a matter of simple logic.

Please don't take offense to that. I am not suggesting that you personally are absurd. Just determined not to go where simple deductive reasoning wants to lead.
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Old May 13th, 2017, 07:55 PM   #73
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That is also an opinion.



Actually, I know by the law of entropy that order does not arise out of chaos without intelligent intervention. The probability that the universe came into order out of a big bang, without intelligent intervention is a mathematical absurdity. It is like insisting that the Louvre and all of its contents resulted from an explosion in a paint factory. For me, it is a matter of simple logic.

Please don't take offense to that. I am not suggesting that you personally are absurd. Just determined not to go where simple deductive reasoning wants to lead.
The idea that "order does not arise out of chaos" is a popular one amongst theists. It is wrong...but it is popular.

Order arises out of chaos all the time.

It comes from the 2nd law of thermodynamics that within a closed system entropy will always increase.

Entropy is not so much chaos as a measure of usable energy in the system. Energy is "usable" as long as there are regions of higher and lower energy concentration. Energy will always flow from high concentration to low concentration unless an outside factor is involved.

Our universe started with such energy distribution, high in some places low in others. Why? We have no idea...but what caused the initial conditions of the universe is one of those things I talked about earlier. We don't know what caused them and, more importantly, have no current way of knowing.

What is important is nothing in the initial state of the universe violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics. It is just that, the initial state. Once that initial state was put in place entropy began increasing...and will continue to do so until the entire universe reaches a state of energy equilibrium known as "heat death"
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Old May 13th, 2017, 08:30 PM   #74
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There is nothing to disagree with. It was just a statement of fact.

It would be like disagreeing with the statement, "Water is wet."
Respectfully,, no it's not.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to currently know anything about anything they might (or might not) exist outside of the universe or what might (or might not) have existed before the universe we inhabit came into existence
It is impossible technically, within the bounds of three spatial dimensions plus time. Any contact with them would occur by definition "on another plane." Empirically proving such contact is possible and ongoing is impossible.

So that's where things stand and as you noted may stand forever. each side making choices, neither able to empirically establish their positions.
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Old May 13th, 2017, 09:07 PM   #75
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Respectfully,, no it's not.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to currently know anything about anything they might (or might not) exist outside of the universe or what might (or might not) have existed before the universe we inhabit came into existence
It is impossible technically, within the bounds of three spatial dimensions plus time. Any contact with them would occur by definition "on another plane." Empirically proving such contact is possible and ongoing is impossible.

So that's where things stand and as you noted may stand forever. each side making choices, neither able to empirically establish their positions.
God is in the Standard Model. Great advancements at CERN discovered the Higgs Boson aka God particle.
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Old May 14th, 2017, 06:11 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Nwolfe35 View Post
Probabilities is a mathematical term and cannot be applied when looking st the question of gods and the origin of the universe. That is because no one knows the probabilities. It is IMPOSSIBLE to currently know anything about anything they might (or might not) exist outside of the universe or what might (or might not) have existed before the universe we inhabit came into existence. We can't even make "educated guesses". The best we can do is observe the universe as it is today and use what we know to extrapolate to the moments AFTER the creation of the universe. We have done that. In all of that data, in all the experiments we have run, in all of the hypothesis and theories we have developed we do not have one thing that points to a "God". We have much that we don't know but what we DO know does not point to a god.
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I respectfully disagree.
with what, exactly, do you disagree?
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Old May 14th, 2017, 06:21 PM   #77
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Respectfully,, no it's not.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to currently know anything about anything they might (or might not) exist outside of the universe or what might (or might not) have existed before the universe we inhabit came into existence
It is impossible technically, within the bounds of three spatial dimensions plus time.
so, you say Nwolfe35s comment is not true, then you immediately confirm that it is true. we live within three dimensions plus time. we live in a universe made of spacetime filled with matterenergy, we cannot move beyond that universe, and you are right, from within those bounds, where we are, it is impossible to know what happened before those bounds were formed.

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Any contact with them would occur by definition "on another plane." Empirically proving such contact is possible and ongoing is impossible.
once again, you confirm Nwolfe35 is correct, contradicting your opening line again.

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So that's where things stand and as you noted may stand forever. each side making choices, neither able to empirically establish their positions.
but Nwolfe35 has definitively established his position, and you agree with it. his position is that we cannot know what happened outside the universe. thats his position, and you agree with it.

we can speculate about what may or may not have happened, thats a lot of fun. but its wild speculation where anything is equally plausible because anything is equally possible and we can never know.
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Old May 14th, 2017, 06:25 PM   #78
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God is in the Standard Model. Great advancements at CERN discovered the Higgs Boson aka God particle.
thats spinozas god. not many people pray to spinozas god.
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Old May 23rd, 2017, 07:04 PM   #79
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Respectfully,, no it's not.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to currently know anything about anything they might (or might not) exist outside of the universe or what might (or might not) have existed before the universe we inhabit came into existence
It is impossible technically, within the bounds of three spatial dimensions plus time. Any contact with them would occur by definition "on another plane." Empirically proving such contact is possible and ongoing is impossible.

So that's where things stand and as you noted may stand forever. each side making choices, neither able to empirically establish their positions.
Either we can currently know something about what is outside our universe or we cannot. These are the only two choices.

If we cannot know something then we also cannot (and should not) assume that there is something outside of our universe. We cannot (and should not) assume that there is "somewhere" outside of our universe for this something to exist in.

If we CAN know (and again, these are the ONLY two choices) then we have either proved it's existence or we have not proved it's existence. (Again these are the ONLY two choices). If we have not proved it's existence then we are back to the idea that we should not assume it exists.

And if we have proved it's existence then that would be the biggest news in science since Einstein's Theory of Relativity was first published.

So either the news of the existence of this whatever it is outside if the universe has been proven to exist OR we should not assume that it exists, these are the ONLY two choices.
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Old May 23rd, 2017, 08:30 PM   #80
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That was a bad shot HD. You reframed almost everything I said.

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Originally Posted by imaginethat
Respectfully,, no it's not.

It is impossible technically, within the bounds of three spatial dimensions plus time.
so, you say Nwolfe35s comment is not true, then you immediately confirm that it is true. we live within three dimensions plus time. we live in a universe made of spacetime filled with matterenergy, we cannot move beyond that universe, and you are right, from within those bounds, where we are, it is impossible to know what happened before those bounds were formed.
No, I didn't confirm NW was right. I said, "It is impossible technically, within the bounds of three spatial dimensions plus time." Allow me to be more clear. the key word is "technically," but I could picked a better word. I'll try again.
It is impossible technically, impossible to explain using science based in the three spatial dimensions plus time.
That's not the same as saying knowing what's beyond 3D+T cannot be known. However, I can understand how an atheistic materialist would think it is the same.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat
Any contact with them would occur by definition "on another plane." Empirically proving such contact is possible and ongoing is impossible.
once again, you confirm Nwolfe35 is correct, contradicting your opening line again.
Only if you assume we cannot access "another plane," which, being an atheistic materialist, you do, but it's only an assumption.

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Originally Posted by hot dragon;
but Nwolfe35 has definitively established his position, and you agree with it. his position is that we cannot know what happened outside the universe. thats his position, and you agree with it.
With all due respect, I do not agree with NW's position.
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