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Old June 25th, 2014, 05:18 PM   #31
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Now you bring that up it is surprising. I don't think of Tolkien are SF or fantasy. Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit are just in a class of their own to my mind. I don't know why.
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Old June 26th, 2014, 12:12 PM   #32
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LOR is fantasy, I hate it when science fiction gets mixed in
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Old June 26th, 2014, 12:32 PM   #33
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Now you bring that up it is surprising. I don't think of Tolkien are SF or fantasy. Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit are just in a class of their own to my mind. I don't know why.
(My bold)

Yah, Tolkien is def fantasy. He mined old Celtic traditions for all they were worth - Old English, etc. were his areas of study. He was good @ it, but hugely prolific - & a terrible writer, from a publisher's POV. He was always rewriting his stuff, even @ the point that the publisher had sent him proof upon proof prior to printing.

No matter, his publishers learned to cut him off - @ such & such date, we're printing whatever we have, & that's final. He left a massive body of work - poems, narratives, sketches, invented history, stories - which were all needed to flesh out the current movie trilogy & give the ladies some lines & action (he didn't write about - hell, he barely mentioned women in the originals). It's good that the various Hobbit & trilogy were filmed - more reason for people to read & discover the corpus.

But the movies also turn the stories into comic-book sagas - a serious underselling of their charms. Oh, well, the purists will just have to mutter in their mead. It is a good story, in the trilogy. (I have no idea what the current set is aiming @ - if we're exceedingly lucky, they'll just tie into the existing - canonical - work. If we're not that lucky ... well, anyone for Hobbitland, The Shire, see the Elven castles, visit the Dwarves, etc. ad nauseum?)
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Old June 26th, 2014, 12:37 PM   #34
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I still beg of any of you to visit barker. I have read them all and his style is so unique only now can they even try to place his pages on film
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Old June 26th, 2014, 12:42 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by hoosier88 View Post
(My bold)

Yah, Tolkien is def fantasy. He mined old Celtic traditions for all they were worth - Old English, etc. were his areas of study. He was good @ it, but hugely prolific - & a terrible writer, from a publisher's POV. He was always rewriting his stuff, even @ the point that the publisher had sent him proof upon proof prior to printing.

No matter, his publishers learned to cut him off - @ such & such date, we're printing whatever we have, & that's final. He left a massive body of work - poems, narratives, sketches, invented history, stories - which were all needed to flesh out the current movie trilogy & give the ladies some lines & action (he didn't write about - hell, he barely mentioned women in the originals). It's good that the various Hobbit & trilogy were filmed - more reason for people to read & discover the corpus.

But the movies also turn the stories into comic-book sagas - a serious underselling of their charms. Oh, well, the purists will just have to mutter in their mead. It is a good story, in the trilogy. (I have no idea what the current set is aiming @ - if we're exceedingly lucky, they'll just tie into the existing - canonical - work. If we're not that lucky ... well, anyone for Hobbitland, The Shire, see the Elven castles, visit the Dwarves, etc. ad nauseum?)
I agree with most of what you say here. After absolutely just loving LOR and The Hobbit, I got hold of some of his other works and it sucked, big time IMO.

But those two works (four works?) are sufficient to justify his fame.
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Old June 26th, 2014, 12:54 PM   #36
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He did create new "languages" maps exc for his works

I don't think w/o his works we would have had the "sword of truth" or "game of thrones"
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Old June 26th, 2014, 01:15 PM   #37
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He did create new "languages" maps exc for his works

I don't think w/o his works we would have had the "sword of truth" or "game of thrones"
(My bold)

From G. R. R. Martin? I knew him from SF - Tuf Voyaging, Sandcastles - I didn't know he had an extensive TV/movies resume - see George R. R. Martin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I looked, but I don't see that he credits Tolkien for the swords stories. He does mention Tolkien in para 4 of Themes, @ the URL. & he pokes fun @ the cartoonish oversimplifications that often show up in fantasies that derive from the Tolkien ethos. Martin's stories tend to work with the societies' complications that he's writing about - he doesn't take shortcuts. I can tell you that Martin is/was a v. capable SF writer - I enjoyed the Tuf series. I tend more to the SF side myself - maybe I'm just a hardware guy @ heart.

Last edited by hoosier88; June 26th, 2014 at 01:20 PM. Reason: add
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Old June 26th, 2014, 01:27 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by hoosier88 View Post
(My bold)

From G. R. R. Martin? I knew him from SF - Tuf Voyaging, Sandcastles - I didn't know he had an extensive TV/movies resume - see George R. R. Martin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I looked, but I don't see that he credits Tolkien for the swords stories. He does mention Tolkien in para 4 of Themes, @ the URL. & he pokes fun @ the cartoonish oversimplifications that often show up in fantasies that derive from the Tolkien ethos. Martin's stories tend to work with the societies' complications that he's writing about - he doesn't take shortcuts. I can tell you that Martin is/was a v. capable SF writer - I enjoyed the Tuf series. I tend more to the SF side myself - maybe I'm just a hardware guy @ heart.
I'm assuming you ment "game" stories. I had to read the first one twice just to get the characters straight in my head. And I do enjoy the HBO show.

The "sword" series is a great read. Perfect for summer nights the show is just terrible.
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Old June 26th, 2014, 01:29 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by hoosier88 View Post
(My bold)

From G. R. R. Martin? I knew him from SF - Tuf Voyaging, Sandcastles - I didn't know he had an extensive TV/movies resume - see George R. R. Martin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I looked, but I don't see that he credits Tolkien for the swords stories. He does mention Tolkien in para 4 of Themes, @ the URL. & he pokes fun @ the cartoonish oversimplifications that often show up in fantasies that derive from the Tolkien ethos. Martin's stories tend to work with the societies' complications that he's writing about - he doesn't take shortcuts. I can tell you that Martin is/was a v. capable SF writer - I enjoyed the Tuf series. I tend more to the SF side myself - maybe I'm just a hardware guy @ heart.
I cannot see the creation of worlds upon lands exc writing style w/o Tolkien even if someone doesn't want to "credit p" them.
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Old June 26th, 2014, 10:27 PM   #40
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LOR is fantasy, I hate it when science fiction gets mixed in
i love sci fi. down here it often gets called 'space opera' these days. i love fantasy too, and lord of the rings is definitely fantasy. my all time favourite genre is those rare writers who can mix the two.
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