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Bullying Until recently, Bullying has been identified as a major concern in our Society.


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Old August 12th, 2012, 10:16 PM   #21
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Yeah, but that didn't happen, and, the shooter didn't pick a martial arts academy. He picked a theater in a city where it's illegal to carry a concealed weapon. The Virginia Tech shooter picked a gun-free campus, meaning campus security was unarmed.



Do you see a pattern here?


then there was a psychiatrist who picked a military base. thats what i mean, you would need to look at a lot of them over a period of time to see a pattern.



spree killings are often very well planned and the plan includes maximum carnage, so it is going to be somewhere crowded and with little security. i suspect its also somewhere that is of personal significance to the shooter. wherever it is there are going to be lots of people taken completely by surprise and most of them are going to run. any sheepdogs present would have to be in the right place at the right time, close to the shooter, not get shot first and be able to act when the opportunity presented itself. it isnt surprising that this doesnt always happen.
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Old August 12th, 2012, 10:44 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by imaginethat' timestamp='1344830470' post='420518

Yeah, but that didn't happen, and, the shooter didn't pick a martial arts academy. He picked a theater in a city where it's illegal to carry a concealed weapon. The Virginia Tech shooter picked a gun-free campus, meaning campus security was unarmed.



Do you see a pattern here?


then there was a psychiatrist who picked a military base. thats what i mean, you would need to look at a lot of them over a period of time to see a pattern.



spree killings are often very well planned and the plan includes maximum carnage, so it is going to be somewhere crowded and with little security. i suspect its also somewhere that is of personal significance to the shooter. wherever it is there are going to be lots of people taken completely by surprise and most of them are going to run. any sheepdogs present would have to be in the right place at the right time, close to the shooter, not get shot first and be able to act when the opportunity presented itself. it isnt surprising that this doesnt always happen.


I too am unsurprised heroism doesn't happen more often. You listed a short list: "... the plan includes maximum carnage, so it is going to be somewhere crowded and with little security," to which must be added, "a reasonable expectation that anyone they encounter will be unarmed."
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Old August 12th, 2012, 10:51 PM   #23
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And do you realize that a civilian cop stopped Hasan? The "military" base was so unarmed, that a civilian cop had to stop the carnage.
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Old August 12th, 2012, 11:10 PM   #24
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i certainly agree that society generally has lowered the standards as to what is expected of the individual and increased the expectation of "others" to intervene on their behalf, nobody wants to take responsibility themselves anymore. its not my responsibility to get a job, its the governments responsibility to create a job for me. its not my responsibility to repay the loan, its the banks fault for lending me so much, its not my responsibility to diet and exercise, its my doctors responsibility to treat my obesity. but i think its a stretch to include your reaction to a killer in this.



50 years ago being unemployed was your problem to solve, being in debt was your responsibility to manage, being overweight was something you dealt with. but i bet 50 years ago, most people would still have run from a spree killer.
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Old August 12th, 2012, 11:39 PM   #25
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And do you realize that a civilian cop stopped Hasan? The "military" base was so unarmed, that a civilian cop had to stop the carnage.


fair enough, i guess he fits into the pattern of selecting somewhere with maximum targets and minimum resistance.



from the wikipedia page:



Army reserve Captain John Gaffaney attempted to stop Hasan by charging him, but was mortally wounded before he could reach him. Civilian physician assistant Michael Cahill also tried to charge Hasan with a chair, but was shot and killed. Army reserve Specialist Logan Burnette tried to stop Hasan by throwing a folding table at him, but he was shot in the left hip, fell down, and crawled to a nearby cubicle.



hasan was in a den of sheepdogs, at the very beginning there were 3 who were right there next to him and actively tried to stop him, 2 of who were trained in combat. they failed. maybe it isnt that easy for someone to bring down a shooter. if it cannot easily be done in a military base by trained soldiers, it is hard to be critical that it didnt happen in a dark cinema filled with panicing civilians.



of course, the soldiers around hasan at the time were unarmed, just as the cinema goers were. untimately someone arrived who was armed and hasan was brought down. if there was someone in the cinema who had a firearm, and the presence of mind to use it, and had a clear shot in the dark and the panic, maybe there would have been a lower death toll.



but if there were that many people carrying around loaded firearms everywhere they went, i would predict there would be a higher firearm death toll overall. accidents, impulsive arguments, well meaning citizens overreacting, there would not be so many people shot by spree killers, but there would probably be more people shot.
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Old August 13th, 2012, 03:14 AM   #26
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Excellent post IT, couldn't agree more.



-------------------------------------------------



It’s always a bit of a stretch to compare two countries when trying to make a point on any particular topic. There are always different histories and different cultures at play. So it can really only be done in the most general sense. So in the most general sense, here I go.



One of the most dangerous places on the planet is only a few hours’ drive from my front door. A full blown war is occurring with roughly 10,000 people being killed each year. But it is a one-sided war where only the bad guys carry weapons, which include everything from Uzi’s, to assault riffle’s to rocket launchers.



Unarmed are the local citizens since it is illegal to own a weapon in Mexico. They have no other options to being terrorized but to escape to the United States. The code of conduct in their country is Plata O Plomo (silver or lead).



[youtube]http://youtu.be/n1VlEWBcm9w[/youtube]







It might be a stretch to compare the war on our border with events here in the U.S., but I see a connection. Hear me out.



In one country, the citizens are unarmed and powerless to defend themselves. In the other country, those at the top are working overtime to disarm the citizens.



In one country, the culture has become one of acceptance to the violence, corruption and abuse of the citizens. In the other country, the culture is slowly becoming one of acceptance to the violence, corruption and abuse of the citizens.



This is “the new normal”.



I agree with the movie, it really is September 10[sup]th[/sup].
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Old August 13th, 2012, 06:32 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat' timestamp='1344837099' post='420535

And do you realize that a civilian cop stopped Hasan? The "military" base was so unarmed, that a civilian cop had to stop the carnage.


fair enough, i guess he fits into the pattern of selecting somewhere with maximum targets and minimum resistance.



from the wikipedia page:



Army reserve Captain John Gaffaney attempted to stop Hasan by charging him, but was mortally wounded before he could reach him. Civilian physician assistant Michael Cahill also tried to charge Hasan with a chair, but was shot and killed. Army reserve Specialist Logan Burnette tried to stop Hasan by throwing a folding table at him, but he was shot in the left hip, fell down, and crawled to a nearby cubicle.



hasan was in a den of sheepdogs, at the very beginning there were 3 who were right there next to him and actively tried to stop him, 2 of who were trained in combat. they failed. maybe it isnt that easy for someone to bring down a shooter. if it cannot easily be done in a military base by trained soldiers, it is hard to be critical that it didnt happen in a dark cinema filled with panicing civilians.



of course, the soldiers around hasan at the time were unarmed, just as the cinema goers were. untimately someone arrived who was armed and hasan was brought down. if there was someone in the cinema who had a firearm, and the presence of mind to use it, and had a clear shot in the dark and the panic, maybe there would have been a lower death toll.



but if there were that many people carrying around loaded firearms everywhere they went, i would predict there would be a higher firearm death toll overall. accidents, impulsive arguments, well meaning citizens overreacting, there would not be so many people shot by spree killers, but there would probably be more people shot.


Let it soak in: "Untimately someone arrived who was armed and Hasan was brought down."



The numbers vary, but averaging them about two percent of the population hold a concealed weapons permit, about 6 million of them. Who knows how many people carry weapons without a permit?



The facts regarding the theater shooting are sketchy. How big is the theater? How smoky was it inside? We do know, 12 people were killed and 58 wounded in around two minutes. Two minutes doesn't sound very long, but in the situation two minutes was a long time.



A well-trained, armed citizen with a laser sight could pull off a head shot at 20-30 meters ... and justice would have been served expeditiously.



Just food for thought, and don't forget "untimately someone arrived who was armed and hasan was brought down."
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Old August 13th, 2012, 10:28 AM   #28
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Just food for thought, and don't forget "untimately someone arrived who was armed and hasan was brought down."
We shouldn't forget hot dragon's last paragraph either:

"but if there were that many people carrying around loaded firearms everywhere they went, i would predict there would be a higher firearm death toll overall. accidents, impulsive arguments, well meaning citizens overreacting, there would not be so many people shot by spree killers, but there would probably be more people shot."

Do you disagree with that position?
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Old August 13th, 2012, 10:33 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by imaginethat' timestamp='1344864740' post='420562

Just food for thought, and don't forget "untimately someone arrived who was armed and hasan was brought down."
We shouldn't forget hot dragon's last paragraph either:

"but if there were that many people carrying around loaded firearms everywhere they went, i would predict there would be a higher firearm death toll overall. accidents, impulsive arguments, well meaning citizens overreacting, there would not be so many people shot by spree killers, but there would probably be more people shot."

Do you disagree with that position?


Yes I do. It assumes that people aren't carrying around loaded firearms. They are.



In Aurora, Holmes shot 70 people. If an armed citizen had shot someone, or even killed someone, but stopped Holmes say when he'd shot ten people, would you have a problem with that?
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Old August 13th, 2012, 10:57 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Bookworm' timestamp='1344878909' post='420596

[quote name='imaginethat' timestamp='1344864740' post='420562']

Just food for thought, and don't forget "untimately someone arrived who was armed and hasan was brought down."
We shouldn't forget hot dragon's last paragraph either:

"but if there were that many people carrying around loaded firearms everywhere they went, i would predict there would be a higher firearm death toll overall. accidents, impulsive arguments, well meaning citizens overreacting, there would not be so many people shot by spree killers, but there would probably be more people shot."

Do you disagree with that position?


Yes I do. It assumes that people aren't carrying around loaded firearms. They are.



In Aurora, Holmes shot 70 people. If an armed citizen had shot someone, or even killed someone, but stopped Holmes say when he'd shot ten people, would you have a problem with that?

[/quote]Probably not. But let's put 10 armed citizens in the theatre. Shooting starts, and all 10 start looking around for who has a weapon drawn, and they all see each other. You would probably have more than one civilian shot by people other than the original shooter.
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