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Old February 18th, 2012, 02:20 PM   #1
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Still don't believe the Private sector is more efficient? Well Apple has more cash than the U.S. government...

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-07-29/t...nce?_s=PM:TECH



Apple is fiscally sound and responsible, it spends less than it earns and it takes pretty good care of it's people... I'd say the government could learn a thing or two...
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Old February 18th, 2012, 03:41 PM   #2
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That doesn't mean that the private sectors is more efficient, it just simply means that they offshore their companies for cheap labor, therefore in return making huge profits. It's called slavery in my books. if you want government to receive more revenue than it spends DUH, raise tax on the wealth and that's including tariffs, corporate, and capital gains.



I bet slavery was very profitable in America too, I guess that's what you would call, efficient.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 04:36 PM   #3
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Right, starting tomorrow, we're dropping the minimum wage, and pretty much anything we would consider a fair wage, or an meager wage. And labor laws, they're gone too.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 08:10 PM   #4
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Poor responses that missed the point.



Apple does not spend more than it makes. That's the point.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 08:29 PM   #5
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Poor responses that missed the point.



Apple does not spend more than it makes. That's the point.


I am glad someone gets it... Some how we got off onto rants about slavery... Mike has the right idea with dropping the minimum wage, but that would be more an effort to help employment than anything else.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 10:02 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by tadpole256 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat' timestamp='1329628247' post='384444

Poor responses that missed the point.



Apple does not spend more than it makes. That's the point.


I am glad someone gets it... Some how we got off onto rants about slavery... Mike has the right idea with dropping the minimum wage, but that would be more an effort to help employment than anything else.


I'm sorry tadpole but it's hard to believe that you love this country when you want to see Americans get paid like wage slaves like in a 3rd world country or dictatorship. Your comment also puts your claim of economic knowledge on the chopping block. It's saddening.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 01:18 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tadpole256' timestamp='1329629361' post='384454

[quote name='imaginethat' timestamp='1329628247' post='384444']

Poor responses that missed the point.



Apple does not spend more than it makes. That's the point.


I am glad someone gets it... Some how we got off onto rants about slavery... Mike has the right idea with dropping the minimum wage, but that would be more an effort to help employment than anything else.


I'm sorry tadpole but it's hard to believe that you love this country when you want to see Americans get paid like wage slaves like in a 3rd world country or dictatorship. Your comment also puts your claim of economic knowledge on the chopping block. It's saddening.

[/quote]



I didn't say I want to see people get paid like wage slaves. I want to see people be able to get jobs. Unemployment is highest in this country amongst teenagers because businesses cannot afford to pay someone with little human capital a wage as high as the minimum wage. People keep trying to make the minimum wage a "livable wage" but not only is that impossible, it devastates our economy and work force. Who can afford to pay a kid over $7 per hour to sweep floors? No one, but if that kid never gets that entry level job, then how does he get experience to get a future job?



The minimum wage in this country is not intended for people to make a living off of, it is intended for people to be able to enter the job market, gain some skills and knowledge and move up. 90% of people who enter the job market at minimum wage make substantially more within a year of employment. The problem with our high minimum wage is that it creates an enormous barrier to entry. People should get paid in accordance to the value they bring to bear and what they can negotiate. If the minimum wage truly helped people why not raise the minimum wage to $20? or better $100?



The other side of a high minimum wage is that it decreases the value of the dollar for us all. If the minimum wage were currently $7, and a Big Mac Meal at McDonalds currently costs $7, then you can count on the fact that when the minimum wage rises to $20, the Big Mac Meal will also cost about $20. Increasing the minimum wage reduces everyone's buying power, and hurts everyone on multiple levels. All serious economists know and accept this fact.



I suggest you take Econ 101 sometime, this is one of the earliest principles explained...
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Old February 19th, 2012, 03:23 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tadpole256 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fayt' timestamp='1329678150' post='384533

[quote name='tadpole256' timestamp='1329629361' post='384454']

[quote name='imaginethat' timestamp='1329628247' post='384444']

Poor responses that missed the point.



Apple does not spend more than it makes. That's the point.


I am glad someone gets it... Some how we got off onto rants about slavery... Mike has the right idea with dropping the minimum wage, but that would be more an effort to help employment than anything else.


I'm sorry tadpole but it's hard to believe that you love this country when you want to see Americans get paid like wage slaves like in a 3rd world country or dictatorship. Your comment also puts your claim of economic knowledge on the chopping block. It's saddening.

[/quote]



I didn't say I want to see people get paid like wage slaves. I want to see people be able to get jobs. Unemployment is highest in this country amongst teenagers because businesses cannot afford to pay someone with little human capital a wage as high as the minimum wage. People keep trying to make the minimum wage a "livable wage" but not only is that impossible, it devastates our economy and work force. Who can afford to pay a kid over $7 per hour to sweep floors? No one, but if that kid never gets that entry level job, then how does he get experience to get a future job?



The minimum wage in this country is not intended for people to make a living off of, it is intended for people to be able to enter the job market, gain some skills and knowledge and move up. 90% of people who enter the job market at minimum wage make substantially more within a year of employment. The problem with our high minimum wage is that it creates an enormous barrier to entry. People should get paid in accordance to the value they bring to bear and what they can negotiate. If the minimum wage truly helped people why not raise the minimum wage to $20? or better $100?



The other side of a high minimum wage is that it decreases the value of the dollar for us all. If the minimum wage were currently $7, and a Big Mac Meal at McDonalds currently costs $7, then you can count on the fact that when the minimum wage rises to $20, the Big Mac Meal will also cost about $20. Increasing the minimum wage reduces everyone's buying power, and hurts everyone on multiple levels. All serious economists know and accept this fact.



I suggest you take Econ 101 sometime, this is one of the earliest principles explained...

[/quote]



$20 dollars why not! lol. But in reality, you simply don't know what you're talking. Yes, event though you exaggerated a bit, all that stuff does happen but the proportions is not what you would expect. If you look back at history of increases in the minimum wage (all the way back to the 1930s when it was 1st put into place) every time the minimum wage goes up, broadly the economy is strengthen. GDP goes up in the immediate following years. The reason why tadpole because people who are minimum wage workers spend almost 100% of their income. So it's an economic stimulus.



In terms of raising the cost of good and services, labor is a small part of the cost of most products. Even a relativity labor intensive product (like a car) labor accounts for less than 10% of the cost of that vehicle. Labor typically accounts for somewhere between 2-8% of a cost of a manufactured good. So tadpole even if you were to double that labor cost, the price of the product itself (and you pass on along 100% of that in the cost of the product) is only going to go up about 2, 3, 4, or 5%.



So yes tadpole I and many many many Americans will be HAPPY to pay 10cents more for products if I'm making a buck in a half more an hour. That's how it breaks down tadpole. So as you raise wages, you put more disposable income in the pockets of people who actually spend it rather than people who drives bubble economies. And that is the very wealthy, which is what you get when you cut taxes on them, as I showed you in that graph. The republicans are advocating for going back to a bubble economy and the democrats are saying lets go back to a strong economy like when we had in the 1950, 60, 70s.



Wages have stagnate and even declined over the past 30 years due to Reaganomics compared to productivity. So a course it make sense to raise wages. I've done my classes already tadpole and from what I can tell, you still have a lot to learn.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 06:21 PM   #9
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What did you take a high school introductory course? The lessons didn't stick...



Where is your data to support this notion that increasing the minimum wage increases GDP? Why don't we just make the minimum wage $300 per hour than we can all live like lawyers!



By the way the difference between $20 and $7 is not 10 cents...



[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6ea6-IZU[/youtube]



And since I know you won't listen to the Nobel Laureate...



[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jv1Zae0sgo&feature=related[/youtube]



The minimum wage is little more than union obstructionism.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 06:25 PM   #10
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Poor Fayt doesn't understand that when the currency is inflated, the GDP "goes up."
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Old February 19th, 2012, 06:36 PM   #11
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Poor Fayt doesn't understand that when the currency is inflated, the GDP "goes up."
Correct... She doesn't understand that the amount of money in the system doesn't mean as much as purchasing power, and with a higher minimum wage we ALL have less purchasing power.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 06:39 PM   #12
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What's the government supposed to learn from Apple? To outsource jobs to a sweatshop in China? Or to run a government based on a profit motive, charging citizens more than the actual costs of the services provided? Certainly we want to be charging enough, but the Republicans want to run the government the way Solyndra was run by charging less than the actual costs......a rather unsound fiscal model.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 06:48 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tadpole256 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat' timestamp='1329708344' post='384632

Poor Fayt doesn't understand that when the currency is inflated, the GDP "goes up."
Correct... She doesn't understand that the amount of money in the system doesn't mean as much as purchasing power, and with a higher minimum wage we ALL have less purchasing power.


It is Economics 101.



WAR IS PEACE

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH.



"Who controls the past", ran the Party slogan, "controls the future: who controls the present controls the past."



Don't you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it.



She had not a thought in her head that was not a slogan, and there was no imbecility, absolutely none, that she was not capable of swallowing if the Party handed it out to her.



It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen.



Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after they have rebelled they cannot become conscious.



(1984)
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Old February 19th, 2012, 06:55 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
Poor responses that missed the point.



Apple does not spend more than it makes. That's the point.


Our point is how they have such a good balance sheet, clearly flew over your head. Nothing wrong with making money as a concept, we get that, but not every route of entrepreneurship is n the straight and narrow. Part of that is ludicrously inflating the cost of their products in comparison to their competitors, and having a herd of servile sheep ready to pay out the ass for their wares. Another little perk they have over the federal government is a massive overseas underclass of slave wage workers toiling away in their sweatshops, building those overpriced goods. Not saying not other company does it, nor am I saying the government is always on the saintly route, but this is what Apple does to make and maintain those mega-profits.



I don't know about you, but I don't want the government overcharging its customers at the level of Apple and having to buy nets to prevent suicides because they treat their employees that badly.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 06:56 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by tadpole256' timestamp='1329708969' post='384641

[quote name='imaginethat' timestamp='1329708344' post='384632']

Poor Fayt doesn't understand that when the currency is inflated, the GDP "goes up."
Correct... She doesn't understand that the amount of money in the system doesn't mean as much as purchasing power, and with a higher minimum wage we ALL have less purchasing power.


It is Economics 101.



WAR IS PEACE

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH.



"Who controls the past", ran the Party slogan, "controls the future: who controls the present controls the past."



Don't you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it.



She had not a thought in her head that was not a slogan, and there was no imbecility, absolutely none, that she was not capable of swallowing if the Party handed it out to her.



It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen.



Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after they have rebelled they cannot become conscious.



(1984)

[/quote]



The lesson: Don't tread on Apple.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 06:59 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by tadpole256' timestamp='1329708969' post='384641

[quote name='imaginethat' timestamp='1329708344' post='384632']

Poor Fayt doesn't understand that when the currency is inflated, the GDP "goes up."
Correct... She doesn't understand that the amount of money in the system doesn't mean as much as purchasing power, and with a higher minimum wage we ALL have less purchasing power.


It is Economics 101.



WAR IS PEACE

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH.



"Who controls the past", ran the Party slogan, "controls the future: who controls the present controls the past."



Don't you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it.



She had not a thought in her head that was not a slogan, and there was no imbecility, absolutely none, that she was not capable of swallowing if the Party handed it out to her.



It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen.



Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after they have rebelled they cannot become conscious.



(1984)

[/quote]



Poor Fayt,,,



I really do like her a lot...
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Old February 19th, 2012, 07:48 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikelew007 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat' timestamp='1329628247' post='384444

Poor responses that missed the point.



Apple does not spend more than it makes. That's the point.


Our point is how they have such a good balance sheet, clearly flew over your head. Nothing wrong with making money as a concept, we get that, but not every route of entrepreneurship is n the straight and narrow. Part of that is ludicrously inflating the cost of their products in comparison to their competitors, and having a herd of servile sheep ready to pay out the ass for their wares. Another little perk they have over the federal government is a massive overseas underclass of slave wage workers toiling away in their sweatshops, building those overpriced goods. Not saying not other company does it, nor am I saying the government is always on the saintly route, but this is what Apple does to make and maintain those mega-profits.



I don't know about you, but I don't want the government overcharging its customers at the level of Apple and having to buy nets to prevent suicides because they treat their employees that badly.


Not to go too far off topic, but I've owned Apples for a long time, and they always have had superior operating systems. I've had almost no problems with the machines, and no problems with adware, malware, or viruses.



I'm curious as to what you mean here: " ...I don't want the government overcharging its customers...."
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Old February 19th, 2012, 07:53 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tadpole256 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat' timestamp='1329709731' post='384650

[quote name='tadpole256' timestamp='1329708969' post='384641']

[quote name='imaginethat' timestamp='1329708344' post='384632']

Poor Fayt doesn't understand that when the currency is inflated, the GDP "goes up."
Correct... She doesn't understand that the amount of money in the system doesn't mean as much as purchasing power, and with a higher minimum wage we ALL have less purchasing power.


It is Economics 101.



WAR IS PEACE

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH.



"Who controls the past", ran the Party slogan, "controls the future: who controls the present controls the past."



Don't you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it.



She had not a thought in her head that was not a slogan, and there was no imbecility, absolutely none, that she was not capable of swallowing if the Party handed it out to her.



It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen.



Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after they have rebelled they cannot become conscious.



(1984)

[/quote]



Poor Fayt,,,



I really do like her a lot...

[/quote]



By no means was I drawing a bead on Fayt. The upside-downess of modern politics is accepted. Defended. Embraced.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 08:38 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tadpole256 View Post
What did you take a high school introductory course? The lessons didn't stick...



Where is your data to support this notion that increasing the minimum wage increases GDP? Why don't we just make the minimum wage $300 per hour than we can all live like lawyers!



By the way the difference between $20 and $7 is not 10 cents...



video



And since I know you won't listen to the Nobel Laureate...



video



The minimum wage is little more than union obstructionism.


I'm sorry tadpole (AND IMAGINETHAT ) but that's just simply a lie and an insult to classical economist who also knows history. David Card and Alan Krueger did this incredible longitudinal study comparing New Jersey to Pennsylvania. Simply N.J. minimum wage went up and in P.A. it stayed the same. Guess what tadpole? Employment INCREASED in N.J.. http://davidcard.ber...s/njmin-aer.pdf



In fact just look in 2009. When the Federal minimum wage went up there was an increase in consumer spending of $4.9 billion dollars. The current minimum wage is about $7.25 an hour but if you want it to be were it was in 1968, it was $9.72 dollars an hour. That's what it would be if you take 1968 minimum wage an adjust it to inflation it will be almost $10 dollars an hour but it's not. I have plenty examples proving you and your so called "economists" tadpole. And you wonder why America is sliding. The working class and middle class wages has stayed stagnate or declined for 30 years while the rich saw unnecessary increases in their wealth. Took forever to find this bloody graph again.







We are a consumer driven economy smart guys. 70% of our GDP is consumer driven. So if you take the ability for the consumer to consume away, you will destroy the American economy by losing jobs. So we need to RAISE the minimum wage in this country but most importantly we need to have a living wage. We need to fix our free trade policies, increase our unionization and raise taxes. I think I know a lot more that those 2 put together. I know my economics and from what I can see, the Scandinavian countries are doing fine think you very much.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 08:48 PM   #20
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat' timestamp='1329708344' post='384632

Poor Fayt doesn't understand that when the currency is inflated, the GDP "goes up."
Correct... She doesn't understand that the amount of money in the system doesn't mean as much as purchasing power, and with a higher minimum wage we ALL have less purchasing power.


Aaaaant False, see this is some ecom 101 for you both and I'm going to ask a question to prove my point. Now use your common sense here because remember that we are a consumer based economy. Lets say imaginethat is developing property and he needs workers. Would it better for imaginethat to pay 10 construction workers $20 dollars per hour and build 1 building or would it be better to pay 20 construction workers $10 dollars an hour and build 2 building?
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