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Old August 1st, 2012, 09:43 PM   #1561
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Refresh my memory on how I proved myself wrong, please.



I am a theist. My chosen teacher is Yeshua of Nazareth. In all of my spiritual explorations, I find much the same being said by many "holy" men. I chose Yeshua because of all whom I know, he puts things the most simply. I like that. I'm a cut it to the bone sorta guy. Moreover, my studies of the Bible, and of key mistranslations, actually make his teachings simpler, and more coherent.



I kept asking for specific events that would prove God's existence. Nwolfe finally came through. Believe me, HD, when I say that I've never conceived of any event in the physical world that would prove God's existence, and I've given a lot of thought to it. I'm in my sixties, and the person who has challenged my beliefs most deeply and most relentlessly is me.



In the years, I've become comfortable knowing that belief in the reality of God cannot be empirically demonstrated. Belief in a naturalistic universe also evades scientific confirmation. And, those who say they don't believe in God, but would if an event occurred that was beyond scientific explanation are twiddling their thumbs, as I demonstrated above.


my bad, i wasnt suggesting you had proved anything, or were even trying, you were making a point. in doing that, you did give a naturalistic explanation for the things you have previously given a spiritual explanation for. the voice you have heard may actually be a vastly advanced alien with the technology you described, visiting earth at their leisure and acting in ways we cannot concieve. what you earlier called the family of god you then explained as the materialistic acts of another evolved species. but this was to demonstrate a point, i did the same thing in an earlier post.



i think i understand your faith, at least in part, and i say again i think it is a scientific position, with a parallel spirituality that dovetails neatly with it. you have as much chance of proving it true as you do of proving it false, so further effort is probably badly spent looking for proof and better spent on enjoying other things. and there is always plenty of life to enjoy.
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Old August 1st, 2012, 09:55 PM   #1562
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Ah, I think I remember my argument that you said I disproved. I told you that direct experience forms the basis for my belief in an intelligent creator. And you think I disproved my argument because I said everything always is subject to further questioning, and that at some a dead endis reached.



Yeah, from the point of view of a naturalist, a rationalist, that seems to argue against my direct experience coming from a creator or creators because I cannot be sure of the source of the direct communication. Very true, and a major roadblock for a devout follower of reason. It is impossible for science to make any comment about God, but it's not impossible for me. I can't prove what I say to anyone, but within my consciousness, I'm satisfied, and really, that's good enough ... for me.



That's the beauty of belief. I believe my wife loves me, and we will live our lives together until one of us dies. From that belief, I order my life, make my choices. If someone challenged me to prove that my wife loves me, I could no more prove that than prove God is real. But it doesn't matter. If I believe my wife loves me, and that God loves me, that's sufficient for me and I have no compelling reason to prove either to anyone.



Am I living in fantasy to believe my wife and God loves me? Time will tell. It may be fantasy. It may not be.



Your attempt to explain the universe via naturalistic processes is fantasy, too. I don't want to dig up old bones, but your naturalistic explanation is fantasy. You haven't a theory of everything, nor can you postulate one to explain the origin of everything. You say, matter/energy/space/time needed no design. The elephant in the room is, that's fantasy. Why doesn't matter/energy/space/time represent design? (crickets.....) Great complexity arising naturally certainly doesn't exclude a designer of the universe.



To me, it affirms a designer, but no, I can't prove that. It's my fantasy.


i didnt quite claim i have a naturalistic explanation of the universe. i claimed that an argument that there is a naturalistic explanation is equally valid to an argument that there is a designer. both are fantasies, both are comments on events that occured outside of space and time and we can not comment on such events with anything other than fantasies.



i also have come to a conclusion that is good enough for me. i am a simple human and the universe is vast, it can easily satisfy me today and continue to satisfy me for my forseeable future.
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Old August 1st, 2012, 10:40 PM   #1563
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Originally Posted by imaginethat' timestamp='1343883563' post='418516

Refresh my memory on how I proved myself wrong, please.



I am a theist. My chosen teacher is Yeshua of Nazareth. In all of my spiritual explorations, I find much the same being said by many "holy" men. I chose Yeshua because of all whom I know, he puts things the most simply. I like that. I'm a cut it to the bone sorta guy. Moreover, my studies of the Bible, and of key mistranslations, actually make his teachings simpler, and more coherent.



I kept asking for specific events that would prove God's existence. Nwolfe finally came through. Believe me, HD, when I say that I've never conceived of any event in the physical world that would prove God's existence, and I've given a lot of thought to it. I'm in my sixties, and the person who has challenged my beliefs most deeply and most relentlessly is me.



In the years, I've become comfortable knowing that belief in the reality of God cannot be empirically demonstrated. Belief in a naturalistic universe also evades scientific confirmation. And, those who say they don't believe in God, but would if an event occurred that was beyond scientific explanation are twiddling their thumbs, as I demonstrated above.


my bad, i wasnt suggesting you had proved anything, or were even trying, you were making a point. in doing that, you did give a naturalistic explanation for the things you have previously given a spiritual explanation for. the voice you have heard may actually be a vastly advanced alien with the technology you described, visiting earth at their leisure and acting in ways we cannot concieve. what you earlier called the family of god you then explained as the materialistic acts of another evolved species. but this was to demonstrate a point, i did the same thing in an earlier post.



i think i understand your faith, at least in part, and i say again i think it is a scientific position, with a parallel spirituality that dovetails neatly with it. you have as much chance of proving it true as you do of proving it false, so further effort is probably badly spent looking for proof and better spent on enjoying other things. and there is always plenty of life to enjoy.


I think it's a part scientific, part spiritual position, dovetailing nicely. I think the two approaches form a holistic view of existence, reality. Both fill in gaps the other has. I think every viewpoint that excludes the value of either approach is inherently flawed.



Young earthers, and religionists of all stripes, who try to hammer science into supporting their spirituality have a keen appreciation of the limitations of a spiritual-only view. However, the science they use is religion cloaked in words and theses that appear to be rational, but aren't.



On the other side, rationalists who say they would believe in the spiritual side, even God, were evidence available are playing a game. Empirical evidence for either doesn't exist, and won't ever. Some atheists are the worst of the rationalists. They evangelize theists. Even some agnostics evangelize theists. Time and energy is expended explaining to theists why they are wrong, why theism is a relic in humankind's Bronze Age past - or should be, and sooner better than later. Scorn is a sure sign of dogma.



Ha, but some theists evangelize too, expend time and energy explaining to atheists - and heathen - why they are wrong, and as some theists would add, evil. Good to note, among atheists the popularity of using the term evil is growing. Ds and Rs, too.



Theists and atheists can respectfully communicate. Look at you and me! And we should communicate. We're each other's teacher, and student. Those who disclaim, even disparage this relationship are dogmatists, theists and atheists both.



Theism and atheism combined with government is sure to produce dogma and dogmatists.



I too come to the conclusion that I am a tiny spark in a vast universe, a spark that can, sorta, comprehend the vast universe. That's notable. Well, the universe is so vast, and my curiosity is so great, I've no idea how many earth-years I could spend experiencing it all.



There's always something new. There's always something yet to learn.
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Old August 1st, 2012, 10:51 PM   #1564
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Originally Posted by hot dragon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat' timestamp='1343885450' post='418519

Ah, I think I remember my argument that you said I disproved. I told you that direct experience forms the basis for my belief in an intelligent creator. And you think I disproved my argument because I said everything always is subject to further questioning, and that at some a dead endis reached.



Yeah, from the point of view of a naturalist, a rationalist, that seems to argue against my direct experience coming from a creator or creators because I cannot be sure of the source of the direct communication. Very true, and a major roadblock for a devout follower of reason. It is impossible for science to make any comment about God, but it's not impossible for me. I can't prove what I say to anyone, but within my consciousness, I'm satisfied, and really, that's good enough ... for me.



That's the beauty of belief. I believe my wife loves me, and we will live our lives together until one of us dies. From that belief, I order my life, make my choices. If someone challenged me to prove that my wife loves me, I could no more prove that than prove God is real. But it doesn't matter. If I believe my wife loves me, and that God loves me, that's sufficient for me and I have no compelling reason to prove either to anyone.



Am I living in fantasy to believe my wife and God loves me? Time will tell. It may be fantasy. It may not be.



Your attempt to explain the universe via naturalistic processes is fantasy, too. I don't want to dig up old bones, but your naturalistic explanation is fantasy. You haven't a theory of everything, nor can you postulate one to explain the origin of everything. You say, matter/energy/space/time needed no design. The elephant in the room is, that's fantasy. Why doesn't matter/energy/space/time represent design? (crickets.....) Great complexity arising naturally certainly doesn't exclude a designer of the universe.



To me, it affirms a designer, but no, I can't prove that. It's my fantasy.


i didnt quite claim i have a naturalistic explanation of the universe. i claimed that an argument that there is a naturalistic explanation is equally valid to an argument that there is a designer. both are fantasies, both are comments on events that occured outside of space and time and we can not comment on such events with anything other than fantasies.



i also have come to a conclusion that is good enough for me. i am a simple human and the universe is vast, it can easily satisfy me today and continue to satisfy me for my forseeable future.


At some point, we pick our fantasies. It's an important decision, how, where, and why we expend our energies.



I fantasize that our universe and we are the creation of intelligence. Is this intelligence life? If so, we couldn't describe how or why it's life. That doesn't rule out it being life, a being, perhaps a race of beings. And perhaps, they too are the creation of yet another race of beings. Where would creation-creator, logically, end? Never. It's an infinite process of adding one to infinity.
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Old August 2nd, 2012, 02:32 PM   #1565
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Originally Posted by Nwolfe35' timestamp='1343814773' post='418261

[quote name='imaginethat' timestamp='1343794380' post='418205']

Why Nwolfe? Whatever the "miracle," why couldn't it be said, well, there's a naturalistic explanation for that. We just don't understand it.



What kind of biblical miracle? Parting the Red Sea? Instantaneously healing someone? I'm not being combative. I'd like you to detail what form of biblical miracle would qualify.


Taking 3 loaves of bread and 5 fish and turning it into enough food to feed hundreds of people; slicing off someone's ear and reattaching it just by the laying on of your hand; having the sun stop moving across the sky for a few hours; turnig water into wine.



There are others, but you get the idea.


Some good theatrics, huh?

[/quote]



Extraordinary claims (ie: God exists) requires extraordinary evidence (ie: Some good theatrics)



Quote:



I've thought about it too. Let me offer explanations other than "proof of God" for each of the examples, both naturalistic and spiritualistic. Btw, you know that I don't accept defining Jesus as God, the trinitarian view.



Fishes and loaves - Corporal beings, some 20,000 or 200,000 years advanced from us, have not only accomplished interstellar travel, they've learned how to manipulate energy, "condensing" it into specific forms of matter, ala Star Trek's replicator. Actually, they don't need fishes and loaves at all.



Reattaching an ear - Something similar to the above accomplished with nano-implants which tie the manipulation of energy directly into their nervous systems. "Thinking" something enables them to materialize it.



Turning water into wine - Something similar to the above.



Having the sun stop - It turns out that the zero-point energy hints given by the Casimir experiment were correct. Corporal beings with science far evolved from ours can tap into zero-point energy. producing huge, ever-refreshed amounts of energy on demand. The first experiments of "planet stopping" fortunately were conducted on uninhabited planets. The results were catastrophic. The suddenness of stopping a planet, using early technology, caused massive tectonic events literally shattering the crust of the planet, opening huge fissures from which enormous amounts of lava and volcanic gases were released.



As the technology was improved, their scientists learned to "modulate" the application of energy, and the flow of time, to effect a "soft" stopping. Likewise, the "restarting" of planetary spin was accomplished by another "soft" application of energy....



Now, to "spiritual" beings who literally materialize before people, their bodies, their essence, we cannot describe using three physical dimensions plus time science. However, these are the same beings historically called "angels" or "gods" by the ancients who, it turns out, did have direct contact with them millennia ago. Suddenly, they appear in diverse locations all over the Earth.



They communicate with world leaders. They communicate with ordinary people too. They have an unsettling habit of walking through walls and doors, but they seem OK, reattaching severed limbs instantaneously, turning wine into water, producing food from pure energy, and so on. The claim to have "traveled" to Earth from the "Kingdom of Heaven," though they say "travel" isn't the right term as they've been among us throughout our history. They claim to have been sent by "God" to usher in a new era on Earth and to assist humans in evolving our abilities to perceive and experience matter/energy/space/time.



They accomplish this "evolution" by mere touch. The only requirement of humans so touched is that they "believe" the beings can accomplish this. They promise to explain how this works "later." However, some people who have examined the people "touched" by the "angels," and have verified the changes, ask a very unsettling question that cannot be answered: Were these beings truly sent by a benevolent "god," or something else?



Nwolfe, my DTT colleague, I've given it a lot of thought. I cannot imagine any "proof" of God that could not be further questioned. I know that I went deep into Fantasyland, however, I think of how "magical" our technology would be to humans living 2,000 years ago. When I try to extrapolate the last 2,000 years of scientific and technological progress another 20,000 or 200,000 years, I can't do it.



What understanding of the principles and technology of an iPhone could a first-century scientist possibly have?


Clarke's Law: Any sufficiently advanced form of science is indistinguishble from magic



If someone were able to perform any one of the miracles I described (especially getting the sun to stop moving for a few hours) to the satisfaction of the judges and win the James Randii million dollar prize I would take that as proof that the supernatural exists....and that would increase my belief that God exists (I don't know if I would go so far as to narrow it down to the Christian God).



The point is that while scientifically plausible that some of the miracles I described MIGHT some day (in the far future) be possible as a mechanical/scientific endeavor...to do so TODAY would be a miracle.



You asked me what I would accept as proof...I will accept that as proof TODAY....If I live to be 100,000 years old, I may not.
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Old August 4th, 2012, 10:58 PM   #1566
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Electricity is a Mystery













That was from a Cretinism "science" textbook put out by Bob Jones University, targeting unsuspecting 4th graders.
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Old August 9th, 2012, 06:29 AM   #1567
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Originally Posted by skrekk' timestamp='1343835115' post='418273

[quote name='H80W' timestamp='1343834630' post='418269']

[quote name='skrekk' timestamp='1343834451' post='418267']

[quote name='imaginethat' timestamp='1343833332' post='418265']

I cannot imagine any "proof" of God that could not be further questioned.


Sure, but evidence of those miracles would warrant investigation and research. So far no evidence has been forthcoming, and miracles don't seem to happen so often in the modern era where we have better recording and communication devices, as well as better investigative techniques.



Even Thomas Jefferson knew it was all horse shit to manipulate the gullible.


Why didn't the tour guide tell me that when I visited his home in Charlottesville over 8 years ago?

[/quote]



I have a lot of respect for what TJ did in that very religious culture, to excise all the silliness from the bible and leave the more relevant teachings intact. Even during the Enlightenment hat was probably not a very popular thing to do.

[/quote]



Quoting from Jefferson's Bible:



Quote:
And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set down, his disciples came unto him:



And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,



Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.



Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.



Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.



Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.



Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.



Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.



Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.



Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.



Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.



Rejoice, and be glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.


Damn, he didn't excise all the silliness. Do you still have a lot of respect for him?

[/quote]



Nice one i.T. Great Point!



As stated b4, even as a child I wondered "Where is God" (our Heavenly Father). It seemed only logical that he would want to know his Children of Creation formed in his image.



Have no idea why Jefferson felt that God would be or should be a "Absentee Landlord" as Al Pacino called him in a Movie!



I thought it extremely arrogant of T.J. to write his own bible, based on his bias views of God.



I once thought a lot like Jefferson outside of that difference. I marveled at the Justice applied in scripture and assumed that Men just came up with those views on how to run a society, etc.



Most People are simply too close to the forest to see the trees!







The People back in Jesus' day were just as shocked at seeing the dead come to life, as we would be today. Scripture doesn't show it as an everyday thing at all. It was a very special time, indeed.



The People even then didn't get what a special time that was in Human History, and how special Jesus was. They didn't follow him as Savior of the World, but simply as a Prophet.



They were shocked when he calmed the seas, as anyone would, but these were his "followers"!



We KNOW inwardly that things aren't right with this world, but how do we know?



Jesus showed us how things once were and how things can be, and will be for some in the future.



IOW, how do people KNOW they have a dysfunctional family? Isn't it because we know what Family life should basically be like, with a lot of love and harmony?



I would like to see some proof for why Jefferson rejected miracles to the extent that he accepted the laws of scripture, but not the miraculous!







I can see why Gandhi didn't claim to be the Savior of the world, but can see why someone with the power scriptures claim Jesus had claiming to be Savior! For those who believe in a Creator that created Men superior to all other life forms to diss miracles that help people get back to the way they should be, is very odd.



I don't think that I have ever heard a Preacher say this, but I did take note that every miracle that I can think of was done to help Humanity in some way, not to just show off power!



I wonder also if Jefferson (formally educated) was influenced by a Teacher or two on this issue. He did believe African Blacks to be inferior to Whites, mentally, even though he seemed to be very kind to his Slaves/Servants, and very much loved by them.



Again, the miracles were not just don't for a wow effect or calling card, as to who Jesus was. The showed what Mankind in harmony with the Creator can be like, and once was. Thanks for that post! Very thought provoking.
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