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Old May 22nd, 2014, 10:07 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by Jimmyb View Post
Do you have evidence of this? How do you reconcile that with Jesus being prophesied and the time in the Old Testament? How do you explain that with the Dead Sea Scrolls? How do you reconcile that with Antiquities of the Jews.
Few scholars today claim that any of the Dead Sea Scrolls (“DSS”) date to the time after Christianity was allegedly founded by a “historical” Jesus in the first century of the common era. Indeed, it is agreed that most of the scrolls pre-date the turn of the era and that none of them show any knowledge of Jesus Christ or Christianity.

Moreover, the Sermon on the Mount – supposedly the original monologue straight out of the mouth of the Son of God Himself – can be shown to be a series of Old Testament scriptures strung together, along with, apparently, such texts from Qumran. No “historical” founder was necessary at all to speak these words, as they are a rehash of extant sayings.

It is easy to see why the Catholic Church would blanche upon the discovery of these scrolls, as it could be – and has been – argued that these texts erode the very foundation of Christianity

Dead Sea Scrolls prove the Bible unoriginal | Freethought Nation

as for the antiquities of the jews, the author, josephus wrote nothing of note. he is quoted by eusebius, 300 years later as having written:

"Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works; a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day"

As this passage first appeared in the writings of the ecclesiastical historian, Eusebius, as this author openly advocated the use of fraud and deception in furthering the interests of the church, as he is known to have mutilated and perverted the text of Josephus in other instances, and as the manner of its presentation is calculated to excite suspicion, the forgery has generally been charged to him.

Do Any First Century Historians Mention the Jesus of Christianity?

so, no prophecies, and no historical evidence except fraud 300 years after the event. nice work.
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Old May 22nd, 2014, 11:09 PM   #122
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It doesn't only sound rude and condescending. It is. That's too bad, as we were having an enjoyable discussion.
and again i apologise, i am not trying to ridicule your beliefs, just disagree, and explain why i disagree. i also enjoy discussing things with you and am enjoying this and want to be civil. its hard to say "i think you're wrong" courteously.

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People have read into the Bible many doctrines that ... aren't there. But through centuries and even millennia of repeating error, error is accepted as truth. The interpretation of the Genesis story I shared harmonized with many other such stories.
i think one can come to an understanding of the universe without the need for that story and one does not miss out on anything. of course, one misses out on the history of christianity, and if one lives in a western country in this era its useful to have a good understanding of christianity.

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"I'm going to heaven, and you're going to hell, and to hell with you" is the mantra that's been used by the political and religious leaders of "christian nations" to inflict all sorts of hell on earth, creating "bad" as I explained, and the mantra is based on an erroneous interpretation of the Genesis story.
i quite agree. and it has caused a great deal of anguish to a great many people.

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My "comforter" isn't an inerrant Bible. The string of continuity that runs through "holy" books written by people all over the earth is my "comforter" right along with space.com. I can integrate science and spirituality and do so honestly. What do I mean by honestly? If a "holy book" and a scientific study are in conflict, I won't bend the study to fit the book.

And you know this, or if you don't you've been pretending to pay attention.
true, your knowledge base is very scientifically informed. i know you dont subscribe to an innerant bible and also i had forgotten your philosophy extends into other religions and spiritual philosophies and spoke without considering that. i think there is a certain ammount to be learned from the bible, and from other such philosophies and mythologies, there is something to be learned from pretty much everything. but there are limits to what one can learn from any one source. i would not look to cosmology for information on how to discipline a toddler. i would not look to geology for advice on sex. and i would not look to the bible for advice on anything other than the history of christianity. i just dont see anything else there that isnt in a better form elsewhere.
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Old May 23rd, 2014, 06:25 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by hot dragon View Post
and again i apologise, i am not trying to ridicule your beliefs, just disagree, and explain why i disagree. i also enjoy discussing things with you and am enjoying this and want to be civil. its hard to say "i think you're wrong" courteously.


i think one can come to an understanding of the universe without the need for that story and one does not miss out on anything. of course, one misses out on the history of christianity, and if one lives in a western country in this era its useful to have a good understanding of christianity.


i quite agree. and it has caused a great deal of anguish to a great many people.


true, your knowledge base is very scientifically informed. i know you dont subscribe to an innerant bible and also i had forgotten your philosophy extends into other religions and spiritual philosophies and spoke without considering that. i think there is a certain ammount to be learned from the bible, and from other such philosophies and mythologies, there is something to be learned from pretty much everything. but there are limits to what one can learn from any one source. i would not look to cosmology for information on how to discipline a toddler. i would not look to geology for advice on sex. and i would not look to the bible for advice on anything other than the history of christianity. i just dont see anything else there that isnt in a better form elsewhere.
Thanks.

Giving up the "Inerrant Bible" presented one of the biggest challenges of my life. I was even willing to put aside a lot of questions ... except the flood. I searched high and low, reading, observing, being willing to reinterpret data if necessary.

The data available does not support a worldwide flood. Period. End of discussion. Jimmy, I tried some maneuvers like your Black Sea rationale. They won't work. While rising sea levels at some point did breach what are now the Bosphorus and Dardanelles straits, that event cannot jibe with the rationale or descriptions of physical events in the Genesis account.

That aside, I also compare our knowledge of "the spirit world" and "metaphysics" to the present state of our knowledge of dark matter and dark energy. I shake my head, but more and more am able to keep my thoughts to myself, every time an atheist asks where's the proof of a supernatural creator.

The universe itself is the evidence.

No more evidence exists to prove the universe "always was" or somehow spontaneously generated itself than evidence exists to prove the universe is the work of "God" or the flying spaghetti monster. Fact.

Some dark, "unseen" matter and energy are interacting with our universe. The concept of an "invisible" god interacting with the universe isn't far-fetched.
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Old May 23rd, 2014, 06:37 AM   #124
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because Jesus , jewish rabbi, is quoted as having quoted the old testment, that somehow undermines what he taught?

I thought only us religious types did circular reasoning.
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Old May 23rd, 2014, 07:04 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by hot dragon View Post
Few scholars today claim that any of the Dead Sea Scrolls (“DSS”) date to the time after Christianity was allegedly founded by a “historical” Jesus in the first century of the common era. Indeed, it is agreed that most of the scrolls pre-date the turn of the era and that none of them show any knowledge of Jesus Christ or Christianity.

Moreover, the Sermon on the Mount – supposedly the original monologue straight out of the mouth of the Son of God Himself – can be shown to be a series of Old Testament scriptures strung together, along with, apparently, such texts from Qumran. No “historical” founder was necessary at all to speak these words, as they are a rehash of extant sayings.

It is easy to see why the Catholic Church would blanche upon the discovery of these scrolls, as it could be – and has been – argued that these texts erode the very foundation of Christianity

Dead Sea Scrolls prove the Bible unoriginal | Freethought Nation

as for the antiquities of the jews, the author, josephus wrote nothing of note. he is quoted by eusebius, 300 years later as having written:

"Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works; a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day"

As this passage first appeared in the writings of the ecclesiastical historian, Eusebius, as this author openly advocated the use of fraud and deception in furthering the interests of the church, as he is known to have mutilated and perverted the text of Josephus in other instances, and as the manner of its presentation is calculated to excite suspicion, the forgery has generally been charged to him.

Do Any First Century Historians Mention the Jesus of Christianity?

so, no prophecies, and no historical evidence except fraud 300 years after the event. nice work.
You are off track regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls as I mentioned them as evidence. The crucifixion of Jesus is mentioned in one of the scrolls.

Most everything Jesus talked about was from the Old Testament. You are reading atheists rehashing their own statements stung together. It is evidence.

The Dead Sea Scroll did not erode the very foundation of Christianity, but strengthened the known texts.

Jesus is prophesied in the Book of Genesis, and throughout the Old Testament.

The rest is the same old worn out unscholarly and atheist tripe from an atheist blog.
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Old May 23rd, 2014, 07:04 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by webguy4 View Post
because Jesus , jewish rabbi, is quoted as having quoted the old testment, that somehow undermines what he taught?

I thought only us religious types did circular reasoning.
People in general are prone to reason circularly.
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Old May 23rd, 2014, 07:08 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
Thanks.

Giving up the "Inerrant Bible" presented one of the biggest challenges of my life. I was even willing to put aside a lot of questions ... except the flood. I searched high and low, reading, observing, being willing to reinterpret data if necessary.

The data available does not support a worldwide flood. Period. End of discussion. Jimmy, I tried some maneuvers like your Black Sea rationale. They won't work. While rising sea levels at some point did breach what are now the Bosphorus and Dardanelles straits, that event cannot jibe with the rationale or descriptions of physical events in the Genesis account.

That aside, I also compare our knowledge of "the spirit world" and "metaphysics" to the present state of our knowledge of dark matter and dark energy. I shake my head, but more and more am able to keep my thoughts to myself, every time an atheist asks where's the proof of a supernatural creator.

The universe itself is the evidence.

No more evidence exists to prove the universe "always was" or somehow spontaneously generated itself than evidence exists to prove the universe is the work of "God" or the flying spaghetti monster. Fact.

Some dark, "unseen" matter and energy are interacting with our universe. The concept of an "invisible" god interacting with the universe isn't far-fetched.
I did not argue for a world wide flood, but that there is evidence there could have been a world wide flood, and that is not the end of the discussion because of something you read. You are not describing the Genesis account of the flood.

Last edited by Jimmyb; May 24th, 2014 at 12:16 PM.
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Old May 23rd, 2014, 07:08 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Nwolfe35 View Post
That doesn't answer the question.

If showing love for your neighbor conflicts with showing love for your god which takes precedence?

Marriage is just one example of where such a conflict can occur.

What about a woman who wants an abortion? Would you help her get an abortion or would you try to talk her out of it? How far would you go to prevent that abortion? Woud your duty to god require you to stop her despite the fact that she desperately wants the abortion?

How would you react to a family member who comes out as an atheist? You have a duty to god to bring as many to him as possible. Yet this family member is going to raise his children as atheists, he's not going to be quiet about his atheism. Do you cut this person out of your life even if it will hurt them? Or, if he asks, do you keep your faith hidden when with his family? Aren't you supposed to constantly witness to show you love for god?

I can come up with dozens of other scenarios where love for your neighbor would conflict with love for god.
"marriage" is only a conflict because you've changed the definition of the word.

"abortion", the only proper response is tears.

"atheists", I am not afraid of them or intimidated. it's a curable condition.

"constantly witness"? it doesn't need to be annoying, if I live my faith well, that may be witness enuf. If they're open to discussion, well I've shown you I am.

"other scenarios"? try again.
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Old May 23rd, 2014, 10:43 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Jimmyb View Post
I did not argue for a world wide flood, but that their is evidence there could have been a world wide flood, and that is not the end of the discussion because of something you read. You are not describing the Genesis account of the flood.
no

there

is

not.

this is just wrong. face it, its wrong. continuing to believe it is choosing to be wrong.
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Old May 23rd, 2014, 10:51 PM   #130
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You are off track regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls as I mentioned them as evidence. The crucifixion of Jesus is mentioned in one of the scrolls.
no it isnt.

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Most everything Jesus talked about was from the Old Testament. You are reading atheists rehashing their own statements stung together. It is evidence.
it certainly demonstrates the old testament has been fairly accurately kept. but they say nothing about jesus.

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The Dead Sea Scroll did not erode the very foundation of Christianity, but strengthened the known texts.
they didnt add anything new. and it has been suggested that some stories such as the sermon on the mount were a retelling of things that were already part of jewish doctrine.

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Jesus is prophesied in the Book of Genesis, and throughout the Old Testament.
i guess your evidence for this is "why should i do the work, look it up yourself".

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The rest is the same old worn out unscholarly and atheist tripe from an atheist blog
just because you dont like it doesnt mean it is wrong.

the dead sea scrolls are an old copy of the old testament. they say nothing about jesus.
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