Political Forums  

Go Back   Defending The Truth Political Forum > Political Issues > Civil Rights

Civil Rights Civil and Political Rights Forum - Civil rights and liberties


Thanks Tree108Thanks
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old March 20th, 2017, 07:03 AM   #81
Commie Exposer
 
Jimmyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 38,333
Quote:
Originally Posted by right to left View Post
Socialism means workers own the full value of their labor, and do not have surplus value extracted by a capitalist (owner). In a truly socialist economy, only small or family businesses would be privately run, while larger companies would be cooperatively owned and operated by the employees....a quick example would be Spain's Mondragon cooperative corporation.
Nations that have generous social programs, progressive taxation, but private ownership are called social democracies for a good reason...to distinguish them from socialist.
What is the connection to my post?
Jimmyb is offline  
Old March 20th, 2017, 10:56 AM   #82
forgot my old user name
 
right to left's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmyb View Post
What is the connection to my post?
I wanted a clarification, since you apparently aren't familiar with the term:social democrat, that's so popular in Europe. It's a compromise position that goes a little further than New Deal capitalism. Yes it is not truly a socialist economy, and if you've paid attention to what's happened in Sweden in particular over the last couple of decades, their social democracy is slowly eroding under pressure from global gangster capitalism....just like other European states and Canada, I might add.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmyb View Post
Stating that Sweden is not a socialist country but calling Sweden a social democracy is oxymoronic. Sweden is either transitioning to a full blown socialist society or they are not. Sweden’s government is a parliamentary democracy. If Sweden has a democratic socialism form of government, then the means of production are controlled by the state. The U.S. tried pure socialism once and everyone almost died.
Thanks from iolo
right to left is offline  
Old March 20th, 2017, 12:21 PM   #83
Senior Member
 
iolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Rhondda
Posts: 1,045
Quote:
Originally Posted by coke View Post
I have never seen you attempt a conversation at all on here. None. Zero. Zilch with anyone what so ever. All you do is come on here, flame some insult posts or make up stuff with no citation what so ever. But, by all means, show me ANY conversation you have had on here about a subject within a thread. Actually, this is probably the closest to a discussion you have had yet, and still, your just piecing together insult only posts.
I once had to teach some eleven-year-olds; imagine them five years younger, full of booze and trying out various drugs, and I think you can probably imagine the sort of problem faced by normal British people faced with Trumpers. Those who deny basic facts expect you to discuss their non-facts; those with no grasp of logic expect you to argue with them logically; those with no knowledge or understanding of basic economics, politics or honesty keep demanding what they call 'proof', which means a text, preferably from some unknown racist magazine, as far into Genesis as their reading skills have ever taken them, or from the last pamphlet they were sent concerning Revelations, but best of all, from something their mates put on Wikipedia last night. I can assure you that, given the chance, I am all for conversation, but arguing with trumpers is like arguing with the pigs we once kept: I expect they love their young, but we don't otherwise have a great deal in common.
Thanks from Daws77

Last edited by iolo; March 22nd, 2017 at 05:36 AM.
iolo is offline  
Old March 20th, 2017, 12:51 PM   #84
Celebrating diversity
 
Sabcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Earth
Posts: 20,095
Quote:
Originally Posted by right to left View Post
Socialism means workers own the full value of their labor, and do not have surplus value extracted by a capitalist (owner). In a truly socialist economy, only small or family businesses would be privately run, while larger companies would be cooperatively owned and operated by the employees....a quick example would be Spain's Mondragon cooperative corporation.
Nations that have generous social programs, progressive taxation, but private ownership are called social democracies for a good reason...to distinguish them from socialist.
Which cannot be accomplished w/o the state enforcing it. After people can go about this organically value economics become meaningless, the state is removed and communism is achieved.

Socialism in itself is not a political theory but it requires the states monopoly on violence to confiscate wealth from those who are unwilling.

This is the topic of the thread.

Thank you.
Sabcat is offline  
Old March 20th, 2017, 12:58 PM   #85
Celebrating diversity
 
Sabcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Earth
Posts: 20,095
Quote:
Originally Posted by coke View Post
I have never seen you attempt a conversation at all on here. None. Zero. Zilch with anyone what so ever. All you do is come on here, flame some insult posts or make up stuff with no citation what so ever. But, by all means, show me ANY conversation you have had on here about a subject within a thread. Actually, this is probably the closest to a discussion you have had yet, and still, your just piecing together insult only posts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iolo View Post
I once had to teach some eleven-year-olds; imagine them five years younger, full of booze and trying out various drugs, and I think you can probably imagine the sort of problem faced by normal British people faced with Trumpers. Those who deny basic facts expect you to discuss their non-facts; those with no grasp of logic expect you to argue with them logically; those with no knowledge or understanding of basic economics, politics or honesty keep demanding what they call 'proof', which means a text, preferably from some unknown racist magazine, as far into Genesis as their reading skills have ever taken them, or from the last pamphlet they were sent concerning Revelations, but best of all, from something their mates put on Wikipedia last night. I can assure you that, given the chance, I am all for conversation, but arguing with trumpers is like arguing with the pigs we once kept: I expect their love their young, but we don't otherwise have a great deal in common.

Sabcat is offline  
Old March 20th, 2017, 02:23 PM   #86
Commie Exposer
 
Jimmyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 38,333
Quote:
Originally Posted by right to left View Post
I wanted a clarification, since you apparently aren't familiar with the term:social democrat, that's so popular in Europe. It's a compromise position that goes a little further than New Deal capitalism. Yes it is not truly a socialist economy, and if you've paid attention to what's happened in Sweden in particular over the last couple of decades, their social democracy is slowly eroding under pressure from global gangster capitalism....just like other European states and Canada, I might add.
I am well aware of what constitutes a social democracy. Sweden is not a social democracy. Sweden officially refers to their form of government as a parliamentary democracy.
Jimmyb is offline  
Old March 20th, 2017, 07:23 PM   #87
Banned
 
coke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: nunya
Posts: 12,580
Quote:
Originally Posted by right to left View Post
Keep us posted when Venezuela seizes all privately owned businesses, like the Soviet Union, China etc......until then, it's still a social democratic mixed economy!
Well, they did. Read the article..again..
Factbox: Venezuela's nationalizations under Chavez | Reuters

Thanks from Sabcat
coke is offline  
Old March 21st, 2017, 10:17 AM   #88
forgot my old user name
 
right to left's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,164
Quote:
Originally Posted by iolo View Post
I once had to teach some eleven-year-olds; imagine them five years younger, full of booze and trying out various drugs, and I think you can probably imagine the sort of problem faced by normal British people faced with Trumpers. Those who deny basic facts expect you to discuss their non-facts; those with no grasp of logic expect you to argue with them logically; those with no knowledge or understanding of basic economics, politics or honesty keep demanding what they call 'proof', which means a text, preferably from some unknown racist magazine, as far into Genesis as their reading skills have ever taken them, or from the last pamphlet they were sent concerning Revelations, but best of all, from something their mates put on Wikipedia last night. I can assure you that, given the chance, I am all for conversation, but arguing with trumpers is like arguing with the pigs we once kept: I expect their love their young, but we don't otherwise have a great deal in common.
Aside from the few and the loudest, I don't believe Trumpism runs too deep in America. The main problem is not having worthwhile alternatives. But, if large segments of people are brainwashed by alternative histories, economics and political theory, they still have to live out here in the real world! So, if they see their incomes slowly eroding as costs of living keep increasing, they are going to have to ask why; and the fascist tactic of targeting and scapegoating mostly powerless groups in society will do nothing to actually improve their conditions! So, I think it's always worthwhile to keep talking, and looking for common ground, regardless of the logjam of fake history, fake science, and fake economics that gets unloaded from rightwing sources.

As for Trump..most of his success comes straight out of seizing an opportunity left open to him by a corrupt and incompetent Democratic Party! The Democrats used to have a lock on the working class voter..and sure, a lot of them were peeled away in prior elections..especially back when economic times were relatively good, and they felt free to answer Ronnie Reagan's siren song of race-baiting, fundamentalist Christian/American nationalism back in 1980, but rather than fight back, most of the Dems cast off blue collar voters they felt contempt for anyway, because they were a class below them! The Democratic strategy since Clinton has been to focus on the growing university-educated professional class..not realizing STEM education and other high tech buzzwords could never make this group a voter base to win elections from! So, as they've offered less and less to traditional Democratic voters, they've just watched their base of support slowly erode away and still have no intentions of doing anything other than chasing corporate donors!

I see most of Trump's success as being the result of failure of the Democratic Party, especially the DNC leadership that had already chosen centrist warhawk-Hillary Clinton as their leader, 2 years before the Election...and then had to cheat to make it happen.

The logic of the Democratic Party betrayal of working class Americans was expressed near the end of the campaign by corporate Dems like Chuck Schumer and Ed Rendall- that polls showing declining support for Hillary in lower class, mostly white rural areas didn't matter...because for every one of those votes lost, they would gain two former Republicans that hate Trump!

That was the strategy in a nutshell, and events since Election Night show no indications that the Democratic Party is interested in reform or even re-examination of their failures...they lost a shitload of Democrats in Congress and state and local governments. But the Democratic Party looks more and more allergic to real reform. So, it becomes a question of where will all of the non-Trump voters, independents and even disillusioned Trump voters going to go in coming elections? If the Dems continue to offer nothing/they should expect nothing! If no credible opposition is offered, you either get Trump or worse-a Trump-like leader like Mike Pense, who's a little more tactful and a harder target to rally against.
Thanks from iolo and Daws77
right to left is offline  
Old March 21st, 2017, 10:25 AM   #89
forgot my old user name
 
right to left's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabcat View Post
Which cannot be accomplished w/o the state enforcing it. After people can go about this organically value economics become meaningless, the state is removed and communism is achieved.

Socialism in itself is not a political theory but it requires the states monopoly on violence to confiscate wealth from those who are unwilling.

This is the topic of the thread.

Thank you.
Are you even aware that capitalism requires state enforcement? And modern globalized neoliberal capitalism requires a military empire to enforce international rules of the IMF, World Bank, WTO and all of the increasingly exploitive trade pacts that are being cooked up for the next round of globalization.

Without police and military force, how does your magical business owner ensure his source of income, or even protect his business, and his land, from being seized by some militia warlord who rises up in the dystopian near future? He can't, and this is why capitalist systems inevitably degrade into fascist states where the powerful control whatever commerce exists.

The state will exist until civilization collapses. The question is: who runs the state: 1. the people? Or 2. the uber-wealthy minority? Which is where we are right now!
right to left is offline  
Old March 21st, 2017, 10:37 AM   #90
forgot my old user name
 
right to left's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,164
Quote:
Originally Posted by coke View Post
Well, they did. Read the article..again..
Yeah, thanks for your five years old information about an oil-based social democratic system that successive US governments have been trying to destroy since the start of this new century!

I'm just glad that when the CIA..Obama's operation this time..pulls off a coup against democratic socialists in Latin America and replaces them with the proper-US-kowtowing administrations..like in Honduras, Argentina and Brazil, that prosperity resumes...just like Ronnie Reagan promised!

Amid Economic Crisis, Anxiety Grows In Struggling Southern Brazilian State
Amid Economic Crisis, Anxiety Grows In Struggling Southern Brazilian State | KPBS

Latin America's largest nation is enduring unusually tough times. Gomes reckons about half his customers these days are compelled by economic hardship to trade their hair for cash.

"Some people cry," he remarks. "They're only selling their hair because they've run out of money."

Gomes works in Porto Alegre, a city that sits beside a giant freshwater lagoon on the edge of the Atlantic ocean. It is one of Brazil's most important commercial and industrial hubs.

Porto Alegre translates as "Joyous Port." For much of history, that description seems to have suited the place. Its 2 million inhabitants have a reputation for being passionate about music, literature and soccer — and for enjoying a relatively high standard of living.

Now, though, the city's neoclassical high-rise blocks and boulevards have the tinge of dinginess and exhaustion that tends to settle on towns that are down on their luck.

Joy is in short supply.

Protests amid "calamity"

Statistics released this month confirm that Brazil has endured the longest and deepest recession in its recorded history. Its economy shrank by 7.2 per cent over the last two years.

Nearly 13 million Brazilians are out of work, more than the entire population of Greece. The government says there are signs of recovery. Yet these are fragile.

In Porto Alegre, this crisis has an extra dimension. The city is the capital of one of Brazil's 26 states, Rio Grande do Sul, which is roughly the same size as Nevada.

The state sits on Brazil's southern end, bordering Uruguay and Argentina, where South America's forests fade into a vast and fertile grassland known as the pampas.

It's the source of most of Brazil's wine, and also beef, soybeans, shoes, cars, high-tech equipment and more.

Rio Grande do Sul's finances have been in trouble for decades, generating an unsustainable mountain of debt; it owes $18 billion to the federal government.

Last November, it officially declared itself in "financial calamity" — in effect, bankrupt. It's one of three Brazilian states that have done so.

Several thousand people last week gathered inside a training arena belonging to Internacional, one of Porto Alegre's two world-famous soccer clubs.

For once, these were not adoring fans who'd come to watch glamorous multi-millionaires show off their ball skills. They were low-paid teachers, whose trade union leaders summoned them from across the landscape for a protest meeting.

The state is paying their wages several weeks late — and often in very small installments. The government also wants cuts and reforms, which the teachers strongly oppose.

Angry banners were draped around the arena, demanding the ouster of the state governor, Jose Ivo Sartori, and the Brazilian president, Michel Temer.

In a show of hands, the teachers overwhelmingly voted to go on strike from March 15. To cheers and whistles, they headed out into Porto Alegre for a protest march.

There are many protests these days on the city's streets.

The day before the teachers' rally, a procession of horn-blaring taxis decorated with black balloons brought the center to a standstill.

These were Uber drivers, demonstrating over the murder of a 33-year-old colleague, and demanding that the authorities make their city safer.

"Things are getting ugly, especially for people who work in the evening in Porto Alegre," said Isael Ribeiro, 26, one of the drivers. "Security is very weak. The police can't cope. There is far too much violence."

Statistics suggest he's right. Homicides statewide have risen by 65 percent in less than a decade-and-a-half. Last year, 2,608 people were murdered, according to Rio Grande do Sul's Department of Public Security.

Yet the police are also being paid late in small installments — and are badly undermanned.

The state-run military police says it needs a force of 37,000 in order to tackle the worsening security situation. In 1994 — when the population and crime rate was significantly lower — its numbers peaked at 29,000. It now has 18,000.

"This is all the fault of politicians. They're all the same," says Aparicio Santellano, president of a staff association representing force members.

Asked how these politicians went so badly wrong, his reply is startlingly blunt: "They stole."

Avoiding a pension crisis

Last month, Brazil received a sobering reminder of how a crisis in state finances can lead to chaos.

Police in a smaller, cash-strapped Brazilian state — Espirito Santo — stopped patrolling the streets during a pay-related protest. The resulting wave of murder, robbery and looting was so severe that the federal government opted to send in the army.

Anxious to avoid more trouble, officials from the federal government and Rio Grande do Sul are trying to work out a deal to ease the crisis, along with the two other big Brazilian states in "calamity," Rio de Janeiro and Minas Gerais.

Brazil's government has offered Rio Grande do Sul a three-year break in debt payments. But there are controversial conditions attached. These include privatizing some state-owned enterprises — a move that requires a statewide plebiscite.

According to observers, the public would likely vote against the plan.

For economist Darcy Carvalho dos Santos, privatization fails to tackle the root cause of what he calls an "enormous crisis." He sees that as the state's crushing pension bill. Teachers who have paid pension contributions for 25 years can retire at 50. For police, it's after 30 years.

"In the [Rio Grande do Sul] civil service, there are many more people being paid pensions than there are working," says Santos. Unchecked, the problem can only be made more acute by demographics: the state's population is growing older, he says.

For Brazil's President Temer, reforming pensions is a core part of his plan to overhaul the nation's welfare system. Yet Temer's government is tangled in a huge corruption scandal. The next election is only a-year-and-a-half away and it's far from clear that he has sufficient political support — or time — to make much progress.

There's already widespread resistance to his plans. On Wednesday, protests and strikes were held in many of Brazil's towns and cities, causing traffic jams, public transport chaos and, in some areas, the closure of schools, banks and government offices.

Critics of the reforms come from a broad range of professions — including the police in Rio Grande do Sul.

"Every day, we confront people with guns and knives," says Emerson Ayres, president of the state branch of the civil police officers' union. "We go into houses without knowing what we'll find and work 20 hours straight. You just can't do such a job for more than 30 years."

As people wait to see if the crisis will ever be resolved by their unloved politicians, Porto Alegre appears gripped by anxiety.

"I don't know what the future will be like, but I think it'll be worse for my children," says Joao Feck, 54, a father of two standing in line to buy a lottery ticket.

"It's going to be very tough," he says. "I've always had work, but no one knows what it'll be like for them. It's very difficult."

Walk the streets of the "Joyous Port" and you're unlikely to find anyone who disagrees with that — including Carlos Roberto Gomes, the street corner peddler who buys human hair.

"We're asking God Almighty that this comes to an end," he says, "and that it ends soon."


:Hallelujah, capitalism to the rescue!


right to left is offline  
Reply

  Defending The Truth Political Forum > Political Issues > Civil Rights

Tags
dictator, requires, socialism



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
proper gun control requires segluary Gun Control 3 May 9th, 2014 11:51 PM
Little Dictator At It Again excalibur Current Events 5 November 25th, 2013 06:48 PM
Texas PC Repair Now Requires PI License intangible child Current Events 3 July 4th, 2008 05:02 PM
Texas PC Repair Now Requires PI License intangible child Current Events 0 July 4th, 2008 12:19 PM
Texas PC Repair Now Requires PI License Crime and Punishment 0 December 31st, 1969 04:00 PM


Facebook Twitter RSS Feed



Copyright © 2005-2013 Defending The Truth. All rights reserved.