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Old October 13th, 2017, 01:53 PM   #31
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What has that to do with anything. Statues and symbols of Indians exist. It doesn't matter why. Also, many Indians fought for the U.S. long before even WW I. Why? Because to some tribes, other enemy Indian tribes were far worse enemies than the U.S.

Now, would you like to give me some BS about the White man wiping out the Indians? In the vast majority of cases, it was disease that killed them. Not the White man.
I wasn't giving you any B.S. about white people wiping out Indians. Most of the damage they suffered, they did it at their own hands. They waged war against each other and the deal with the diseased blankets.... Does anybody think the white people did that intentionally?

Where statues, memorials, and monuments exist to remind us of the Indians, let them stand. It's a part of our history.
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Old October 13th, 2017, 02:12 PM   #32
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What has that to do with anything. Statues and symbols of Indians exist. It doesn't matter why. Also, many Indians fought for the U.S. long before even WW I. Why? Because to some tribes, other enemy Indian tribes were far worse enemies than the U.S.

Now, would you like to give me some BS about the White man wiping out the Indians? In the vast majority of cases, it was disease that killed them. Not the White man.
Europen diseases the NA had no natural defenses against.
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Old October 13th, 2017, 02:13 PM   #33
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I wasn't giving you any B.S. about white people wiping out Indians. Most of the damage they suffered, they did it at their own hands. They waged war against each other and the deal with the diseased blankets.... Does anybody think the white people did that intentionally?

Where statues, memorials, and monuments exist to remind us of the Indians, let them stand. It's a part of our history.
Sure it was done intentionally.
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Old October 13th, 2017, 03:49 PM   #34
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I can think anything I want. But, I hear a lot of this crap about respecting the rule of law.

What good is the law to anybody if the very people it serves do not respect it? If, indeed, the 14th Amendment was put into place by questionable means, then how are we any better off than having outright tyrants at our doors?

I don't know that I'm debating you. We're all over the board on this race issue. I will say this:

Somewhere (IIRC on this board) a poster put up a Bingo Board with the typical excuses whites give to blacks to justify the status quo. You were miffed that I chose not to use those, but to tell you in all honesty what white people REALLY think. Nobody can legitimately accuse me of discrimination since I come down hard on both sides. Ask the hard core anti-immigrant types who try to debate immigration with me.

I think you want to "debate" people to the extent that you prove your case and it goes unchallenged. Whether you consider it right or wrong, this is my own view:

The non-whites have a problem with what they call "white supremacy." The real deal is I live in an area that is always touting the first black this, the all black city council that, and the all black college over there. Then, in the same breath, those same people had a problem with a college that allowed all races to enroll, but had a ban on inter-racial dating and so forth on campus. The liberals and the blacks especially do not respect the white peoples Rights to a Freedom of Religion or of a Freedom of Association.

Just as the people on the right believing that THEY have some claim to jobs in the private market, so do liberal blacks. They demand that private employers hire them, promote them and even give them preferential treatment. Instead of ignoring "racist" businesses, the liberal mindset is to try and pound anyone into the ground that disagrees.

The real issue is that America has no problem with claims of racial supremacy, until it is perceived that it is white supremacy. There is no problem with slavery until whites got involved; no problem with touting racial accomplishments until it's whites doing it; no problem with maintaining statues, memorials, and monuments to our history until we're talking about whites. The funny thing is, although you keep saying it, I've never seen a Confederate memorial touting white supremacy.

Then you don't want any debate that questions the legality of the 14th Amendment. You're proving one of the reasons whites and blacks cannot coexist. No debate is possible once one side or the other makes up their mind not to examine the facts. At the end of the day blacks want the same thing for their people that whites want for theirs. But, the blacks don't want to respect the rights of white people. So, they try to lock the whites out of society... tearing down the white peoples statues, memorials and monuments. Here in Atlanta we have Bounce TV (a black tv station whose motto is TV Done Our Way.) Imagine what would happen if we had a white tv station with a subtle racist motto like that!

I guess we've come to the end of any "debate." Since there isn't any credible resistance to the mass brainwashing, the NEW WORLD ORDER types win and America is headed toward a one race, one religion society that will be easy prey for those who want to enslave the people and impose tyranny.
Manifest Destiny, say it!

Last edited by imaginethat; October 13th, 2017 at 04:00 PM.
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Old October 13th, 2017, 10:47 PM   #35
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Now, would you like the most likely reason? Too bad. You're going to get it anyway. The most likely reason those statues were built was because the populations of Confederate states wanted to honor those who fought or died for them.
I'm sure there are Germans around who want statues of Wehrmacht and SS heroes also so they can honor those who fought and died for them!
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Old October 13th, 2017, 10:59 PM   #36
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Now, would you like to give me some BS about the White man wiping out the Indians? In the vast majority of cases, it was disease that killed them. Not the White man.
Amazing the things you can pull out of your ass without using a flashlight!
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"The thinking behind the assumption is both ahistorical and illogical in that Europe itself lost a third to one-half of its population to infectious disease during medieval pandemics. The principal reason the consensus view is wrong and ahistorical is that it erases the effects of settler colonialism with its antecedents in the Spanish “Reconquest” and the English conquest of Scotland, Ireland, and Wales. By the time Spain, Portugal, and Britain arrived to colonize the Americas, their methods of eradicating peoples or forcing them into dependency and servitude were ingrained, streamlined, and effective.

If disease could have done the job, it is not clear why the European colonizers in America found it necessary to carry out unrelenting wars against Indigenous communities in order to gain every inch of land they took from them—nearly three hundred years of colonial warfare, followed by continued wars waged by the independent republics of the hemisphere.

Whatever disagreement may exist about the size of precolonial Indigenous populations, no one doubts that a rapid demographic decline occurred in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, its timing from region to region depending on when conquest and colonization began. Nearly all the population areas of the Americas were reduced by 90 percent following the onset of colonizing projects, decreasing the targeted Indigenous populations of the Americas from one hundred million to ten million. Commonly referred to as the most extreme demographic disaster—framed as natural—in human history, it was rarely called genocide until the rise of Indigenous movements in the mid-twentieth century forged questions.
" (from "An Indigenous Peoples' History of the United States (ReVisioning American History)" by Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz)
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Old October 13th, 2017, 11:29 PM   #37
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Actually by the time the Civil War started, slavery was not a very profitable system. While it did fuel industrialization in both the North and Great Britain, by the time the Civil War was getting ready to start it wasn't really profitable anymore. It was really about maintaining a way of life more than it was about money. Industrialization was the future.

Slavery had always been wrong. However, once it was no longer profitable anymore, the government was able to galvanize the nation against it.
No, that's the historical revisionism that became entrenched on all sides of the slavery debate after the Civil War:

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"For some fundamental assumptions about the history of slavery and the history of the United States remain strangely unchanged.

The first major assumption is that, as an economic system—a way of producing and trading commodities—American slavery was fundamentally different from the rest of the modern economy and separate from it. Stories about industrialization emphasize white immigrants and clever inventors, but they leave out cotton fields and slave labor. This perspective implies not only that slavery didn’t change, but that slavery and enslaved African Americans had little long-term influence on the rise of the United States during the nineteenth century, a period in which the nation went from being a minor European trading partner to becoming the world’s largest economy—one of the central stories of American history."........................................

"Slavery’s story gets told in ways that reinforce all these assumptions. Textbooks segregate twenty-five decades of enslavement into one chapter, painting a static picture. Millions of people each year visit plantation homes where guides blather on about furniture and silverware. As sites, such homes hide the real purpose of these places, which was to make African Americans toil under the hot sun for the profit of the rest of the world.

All this is the “symbolic annihilation” of enslaved people, as two scholars of those weird places put it.2 Meanwhile, at other points we tell slavery’s story by heaping praise on those who escaped it through flight or death in rebellion, leaving the listener to wonder if those who didn’t flee or die somehow “accepted” slavery"
(from "The Half Has Never Been Told: Slavery and the Making of American Capitalism" by Edward E. Baptist)
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If you study history, this isn't anything new. As the American empire continues to crumble, there will be a wave of ethnic nationalism. This has been seen in every major empire in history once they began to decline. Capitalism is failing. This is it. Nothing we can do to fix it.
I'm sure that you're correct about racial and ethnic tensions increasing as the American Empire declines. It's happened in many other nations where ethnic tensions are background noise until economic decline starts a fight for the spoils.
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Old October 14th, 2017, 11:00 AM   #38
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I'm sure there are Germans around who want statues of Wehrmacht and SS heroes also so they can honor those who fought and died for them!
It would be irrelevant. Germans serving Hitler never fought on of America.
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Old October 14th, 2017, 12:51 PM   #39
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Sure it was done intentionally.
The stories about the Pilgrims gifting the blankets of smallpox victims to the Indians may be apocryphal.

When the Pilgrims arrived in Massachusetts, most of the native population had already died from European diseases, which had come from the west, presumably introduced by the Spanish.


The Mississippian culture that built structures larger than the pyramids, was thriving when Columbus first landed, and extinct by the time the first Europeans reached the area.
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Old October 14th, 2017, 01:40 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by right to left View Post
No, that's the historical revisionism that became entrenched on all sides of the slavery debate after the Civil War:

(from "The Half Has Never Been Told: Slavery and the Making of American Capitalism" by Edward E. Baptist)
http://a.co/eDOxUw4
Yea, that's my point. It was profitable, and it certainly did build the American economy, but only for a period of time. Slaves were expensive.

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I'm sure that you're correct about racial and ethnic tensions increasing as the American Empire declines. It's happened in many other nations where ethnic tensions are background noise until economic decline starts a fight for the spoils.
Yep. It makes perfect sense in the context of both American history and world history.
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