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Old March 1st, 2018, 05:20 PM   #31
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This thread has gone completely fucking insane is like no time.........

Athena, you are so full of it i dont even know where to start. You are throwing around your half-witted opinions as if they are some kind of natural fact handed down by ancient spirits or some nonsense. You know why you cant find those easy links to your "easy" issues? Because they are bullshit, pure and simple. Did bringing women into the workforce have an effect? Sure. You know one very positive effect? Bringing in the untapped talents and skills of half the population who were held as basically domestic servants to men, with little hope or ability to ever live their own lives.

Stop wasting our time with longwinded posts of your opinions. Like RNG said, you have not (at all) produced any facts to back up your claims. Just rants and paragraphs of pretty crazy sounding junk.

To right to left or whoever, your rants against Thatcher-like robots has no bearing on the vast numbers of feminists who do care about the issues i have brought up. It has no bearing on the countless women out there every day working, organizing and volunteering to help people across all kinds of intersectional lines that i discussed above. Dont try to color us all with the same brush, and do not delude yourself that you are onto something if someone like Athena pats you on the back

Seriously, i dont know where you all are getting your ideas
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Old March 2nd, 2018, 06:13 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Lyzza View Post
This thread has gone completely fucking insane is like no time.........

Athena, you are so full of it i dont even know where to start. You are throwing around your half-witted opinions as if they are some kind of natural fact handed down by ancient spirits or some nonsense. You know why you cant find those easy links to your "easy" issues? Because they are bullshit, pure and simple. Did bringing women into the workforce have an effect? Sure. You know one very positive effect? Bringing in the untapped talents and skills of half the population who were held as basically domestic servants to men, with little hope or ability to ever live their own lives.

Stop wasting our time with longwinded posts of your opinions. Like RNG said, you have not (at all) produced any facts to back up your claims. Just rants and paragraphs of pretty crazy sounding junk.

To right to left or whoever, your rants against Thatcher-like robots has no bearing on the vast numbers of feminists who do care about the issues i have brought up. It has no bearing on the countless women out there every day working, organizing and volunteering to help people across all kinds of intersectional lines that i discussed above. Dont try to color us all with the same brush, and do not delude yourself that you are onto something if someone like Athena pats you on the back

Seriously, i dont know where you all are getting your ideas

Well, that is one post I will not read. I once took pride in being verbally abusive and decided that is not something to be proud about. I am afraid if I read your disrespectful comments, the urge to revert back my old ways will surface.

What goes around comes around. Speak to me as you would like me to speak to you. Being respectful will not get good results.

Like really Lyzza do you think a man could be any worse to me than you are being?

Last edited by Athena; March 2nd, 2018 at 07:29 AM.
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Old March 2nd, 2018, 07:21 AM   #33
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Our house has been in a little disarray because of a recent minor flood. With all the cleaning up and moving stuff around, I've lost track of one of the recent books I haven't completed yet: "The Chalice and the Blade" by Riane Eisler.. Eisler's primary focus early on in her career was the excavations of the Minoan and pre-Minoan civilization on the island of Crete, in the Mediterranean.

Ancient Crete is pivotal in understanding the very early stages of cultural and religious life in Greece and Asia Minor, since an unfortunate volcano destroyed and buried so many important artifacts that could later be unearthed/rather than the pattern that occurred in Greece and Turkey, where all evidence of goddess-worship and female priesthoods were wiped out by later patriarchal worship and then ofcourse Christianity and Islam finished the job of erasing all traces of a time when the common religious understanding of the world (universe) was that the Mother Goddess was the creator of all things and sustainer of all life. This understanding long predates any notions of 'civilization' since the very oldest stone artifacts discovered all over the world are the so called "venus" statues...many of which are more than 40,000 years old.

What they represented exactly to the people making them is unknown, but the Minoan Civilization, which preserved the Mother Goddess in its pantheon of deities tells us of a pattern of supplanting the Goddess for male gods and then the supreme male God..a God who has a Son, but doesn't have a Goddess and creates a Son with no Mother! Just sayin modern Christian doctrine shows us what happens when the transition from matrilocal egalitarian societies was a permanent transition to the male dominated, warrior cultures that under all the veneer of civility, still run our world today!

So, all that sayin that we may have some female icons, but these icons...including the sexless Virgin Mother that Catholics worship, are a hollow shell and mostly used as tools by the patriarchs to define what women should aspire to.
Ah, the post I was looking for. Googling for information makes our prejudices so obvious, and those prejudices distort our perception of human nature. I wanted to check my understanding of Ephesus before replying to your post. At first, I couldn't find at all, only the Greeks and Romans. When I did find Ephesus, it was an argument that it wasn't a matriarchy, denying the evidence that woman did have power.

Ephesus was a contemporary civilization with the ancient Greeks. There is evidence that like the Minoan Civilization, women held a lot of power, and men did not dominate them.

We can find evidence of women having power everywhere. As you said the Venus figures are everywhere and everyone knew life came from the female, not the male! In some cultures such as India, a female goddess is the life giver and taker. Logically speaking, it is amazing the giver and taker of life went from a female to a male. The Greeks having to put Athena in Zeus's head after Zeus swallowed her mother. Time and again ancient cultures saw the female as wisdom. Athena's mother was wisdom and Zeus swallowed her.

Many of the old cultures had the mother and son image. I am sure the Catholics promoted this image because it was so universal.

I seriously do not want to leave this subject without mentioning the better position of Cherokee women. This is probably atypical of tribes.

Quote:
9. “Through the late 1700s, Cherokee women were civically engaged. They owned land and had a say during wartime,” writes Astrid Munn in Native Daughters. “But this changed after the tribe ceded large tracts of land to the U.S. government in 1795.” Since the mid-1980s, though, a generation of Native women activists, lawmakers and attorneys have been changing that history and working to empower women again.
I hope if I make this post short enough, Lyzza might read it and rethink her opinion of me and what I have to say. I like how the link I am using begins its explanation. 10 Things You Need to Know About Native American Women - Ms. Magazine Blog

Quote:
1. “A lot of people think that us women are not leaders, but we are the heart of the nation, we are the center of our home, and it is us who decide how it will be.”–Philomine Lakota, Lakota language teacher, Red Cloud High School, Pine Ridge, S.D.
The link tells us women carry on their cultures and their cultures last much longer than the wars to defend them. This opinion is backed by research. Women enforce cultural norms, while men commonly hold the political power and determine things like war and the rules they will enforce, if the women will let them. Can we pay more attention to anthropology and studying tribes before drawing conclusions about our nature and what we want?

THANK YOU LEFT TO RIGHT FOR MAKING THIS THREAD MORE INTELLECTUAL THAN IT WAS.

Last edited by Athena; March 2nd, 2018 at 07:27 AM.
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Old March 2nd, 2018, 10:17 AM   #34
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I am not the only woman on this site constantly rolling my eyes at this stuff.

Just repeating ancient customs does nothing to validate your claims that women in the workforce is a bad thing. Women still do all our traditional gender role stuff, and we still have careers and continue to grow and smash glass ceilings. I couldnt care less what ancient Greeks thought about women. I care how we are being perceived and treated today, period.

It might open some eyes and minds if people got out of dusty old books written by men, and rejoined the rest of us in 2018.....
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Old March 2nd, 2018, 10:38 AM   #35
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This thread has gone completely fucking insane is like no time.........

Athena, you are so full of it i dont even know where to start. You are throwing around your half-witted opinions as if they are some kind of natural fact handed down by ancient spirits or some nonsense. You know why you cant find those easy links to your "easy" issues? Because they are bullshit, pure and simple. Did bringing women into the workforce have an effect? Sure. You know one very positive effect? Bringing in the untapped talents and skills of half the population who were held as basically domestic servants to men, with little hope or ability to ever live their own lives.

Stop wasting our time with longwinded posts of your opinions. Like RNG said, you have not (at all) produced any facts to back up your claims. Just rants and paragraphs of pretty crazy sounding junk.
Because you're an ignorant uninformed little college shit, you have no clue or interest in the past and how history so often repeats itself because so many like you forget or never learned what happened in the past! That past...especially the deep past is important because the prevailing secular humanist intelligentsia is trying to force their narrative that men are and have always been naturally aggressive and possessive beasts/while women have always been subservient compliant accomplices just trying to find and pick a 'better' man who will take care of them and their offspring.

This bullshit narrative of life for the ancients being "nasty, brutish and short," is essential even though it is complete crap, because the only way to justify "progress" of the past 200 or so years is to make the past look extremely bad, so the future by comparison looks good...even for women in general, unlike in the past, when many actual feminist writers were studying the new science of anthropology for clues on how societies used to be and should be structured today. The modern feminist today, just wants a more female-friendly version of capitalism and says nothing about America's burdens of maintaining an empire...especially the costs of military and security spending and what that takes away from all domestic and social spending. The last thing the promulgators of secular humanist drivel want the public to know is that the modern civilization is headed off a cliff and none of their proposed solutions for any of our problems will work!

Quote:
To right to left or whoever, your rants against Thatcher-like robots has no bearing on the vast numbers of feminists who do care about the issues i have brought up. It has no bearing on the countless women out there every day working, organizing and volunteering to help people across all kinds of intersectional lines that i discussed above. Dont try to color us all with the same brush, and do not delude yourself that you are onto something if someone like Athena pats you on the back

Seriously, i dont know where you all are getting your ideas
Show me anywhere in your blather about intersectionality where economic class enters the 'intersection' and billionaire and other uber wealthy women are recognized as having too much at stake with the rich class to share any goals with the rest of us commoners..male or female? The uber-wealthy seem to be the only economic class that clearly understands their class interests and tries to cooperate together for mutual advantage/and disadvantage for the rest of us...including the environment!

Same goes for all the Thatcher clones like Hillary Clinton and all her warmongering fellow travelers: what good does having a woman in the job do when she has identical policies on important issues like use of military power and military spending? Same question for having the first "black" president...who arguably was more damaging for black America than GW Bush!

The left in America today is in disarray because it doesn't stand for anything aside from their own particular issues and celebrating symbolic and empty victories....like having the first black president.

Last edited by right to left; March 2nd, 2018 at 10:42 AM.
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Old March 2nd, 2018, 10:43 AM   #36
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I wasnt talking about billionaire women, i was talking about the many many many times more feminists and women doing all that hard work. You are the one that wants to make it about figurehead politicians and elitists, not me. The fact you cant see that is probably why you are so blind to it.

This "ignorant uniformed college shit" just might know what she is talking about............
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Old March 2nd, 2018, 10:44 AM   #37
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Just repeating ancient customs does nothing to validate your claims that women in the workforce is a bad thing.
And who's making that claim? Strawman arguments abound.
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Old March 2nd, 2018, 10:45 AM   #38
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And who's making that claim? Strawman arguments abound.
Who do you think? She went on and on one day in this thread or another about how women flooding the job force was bad for men and wages.

Shove that straw.....
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Old March 2nd, 2018, 10:51 AM   #39
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Who do you think? She went on and on one day in this thread or another about how women flooding the job force was bad for men and wages.

Shove that straw.....
Give her a chance to explain her arguments instead of just jumping on some sentences you take offense to. My impression was her complaints were with how women just added job responsibilities to the other home responsibilities when they entered the workforce.
fwiw, much of the post-WWII push for women to be out in the workforce came right out of the business especially marketing communities...who felt that more women out working would mean large markets to sell products and services to. Understand that the 2nd wave of feminism wasn't all for good intentions.
Problem is the bad players were and never all called out...just like you never challenged or had anything to say about Steinem for example.
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Old March 2nd, 2018, 10:57 AM   #40
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Give her a chance to explain her arguments instead of just jumping on some sentences you take offense to. My impression was her complaints were with how women just added job responsibilities to the other home responsibilities when they entered the workforce.
fwiw, much of the post-WWII push for women to be out in the workforce came right out of the business especially marketing communities...who felt that more women out working would mean large markets to sell products and services to. Understand that the 2nd wave of feminism wasn't all for good intentions.
Problem is the bad players were and never all called out...just like you never challenged or had anything to say about Steinem for example.
I didnt, because i wasnt and still am not interested in Gloria Steinem. Not all of us are Steinem fans or that type of feminist. So it doesnt matter what you say about her, i dont pay much attention to her like Albright and Clinton that you also mentioned. Elitists are not really my people. In fact, i was one of millions of young women who were very insulted by Albright saying a couple years ago that we would go to hell if we didnt vote for Clinton. Like i needed any other reason to back Bernie

So dont try to stitch me to those women, and their kind. That is not where i am coming from and each time i try to say it i get jumped.

Expanding the job market to women was and is a great thing for all of us, not just women. Half of the population was unable to use their skills, talents and intelligence to help improve the lives of us all. Need old timey proof of that? Well, something my uninformed college ass learned was the writings of John Stuart Mill, and he was a huge advocate for allowing women to be liberated from those suffocating gender roles and he even stated what i did, that it is crazy to keep half the population from helping to increase the greatest utility for all.

Yeah, i have read books too.......
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