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Old February 28th, 2018, 09:08 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Clara007 View Post
No, Athena. Lyzza (and she can correct me if I'm wrong) was speaking about the "OLD gender roles". I think Lyzza is referring to YOUR statements.

Our son has not faced any gender role issues or problems at all--and in fact, most people their age think it's a great idea.

Why is it that, for so many people, seeing a man caring for his child is still a surprise? This attitude perpetuates a whole range of stereotypes about men, fathers, and families that continue to haunt American culture in powerful ways.

It reinforces the notion of women as the nurturer and men as the breadwinner and suggests that for men to be caring and nurturing they have to put on a persona other than just simply being a dad. Honestly, I am sick of this conversation. It's absurd.
I don't like stereotyping or the generalizations. I don't like the little boxes.
PEOPLE can be and SHOULD be what they WANT to be--what works best for them--caregivers or breadwinners--OR BOTH.

The American family has changed. AND it doesn't NEED to be defined. We are seeing single-parent households, same-sex households, extended family homes, homelessness, adoptive families and more. We are seeing two men raise little girls and two women raising little boys. Grandparents are raising their grandchildren.
Regardless of the shape, size, and scope of the family — our children need mentors and role models, love and attention, support and guidance, tenderness and firmness, laughter and encouragement, and protection. None of this is the sole province of a mother or a father--a man or a woman.
What do you think was wrong about old gender roles? Ben Franklin's wife ran the business and managed the estate for the many years Ben Franklin was in Paris. I think very poorly of how he treated her and how history has ignored the role of women. If we knew history well enough, we would know of the very important role women and wives have played in our history.

Theodore Roosevelt defended the role of women when we mobilized for war and women played a huge role in our defense. If we spoke of their value instead of arguing against that, we might have a better world. As we need to end pitting one race against the other, we need to end pitting woman against men.


Quote:
Abigail Smith Adams | National Women's History Museum
https://www.nwhm.org/education-resou.../abigail-adams
Hailed for her now-famous admonition that the Founding Fathers “remember the ladies” in their new laws, Abigail Adams was not only an early advocate for women's rights, she was a vital ... Though John Adams did not take his wife's letter seriously, throughout his life, he sought her opinions on political and other matters.
And where would we be today if it had not been for Elenor Roosevelt's influence on Franklin Roosevelt and our nation?

Eisenstein's wife may have contributed Eisenstein's understanding-

Quote:
Did Einstein's First Wife Secretly Coauthor His 1905 Relativity Paper ...
https://www.technologyreview.com/......oauthor-his-19...
Apr 18, 2012 - Various historians have concluded that Einstein’s first wife, Mileva, may have secretly contributed to his work. ... In the the late 1980s, the American physicist Evan Walker Harris published an article in Physics Today suggesting that Einstein first wife, Mileva Maric, was an ...
When I speak of the value of the traditional woman, I am speaking of a very valuable person.

Other than being sick of what I say, you also ignore science. This is not going well.

Last edited by Athena; February 28th, 2018 at 09:33 AM.
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Old February 28th, 2018, 10:58 AM   #42
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You might to expand on what you think and your attacks on the idea that a woman who stays home to care for her family is a very valuable woman. I think you have been arguing against the value of this person who stays home to care for the family and you are trapped in a corner when this person is a man.

It matters not if the man or woman stays home to care for the family. The person who does this is in a very bad position and the position is made even worse when we label the stay at home women, "just a housewife" and deny the value of this person and deny this person any protection.

The person who stays at home, is dependent on the person who works for a living, and the dependent person is far more apt to be the victim, no matter what gender this person is. The person who stays at home will not be competitive for good paying jobs because in our technological society hiring is done by merit. Merit is gained through recent education and specific work experience. A college education and the work experience of a janitor does not qualify a person for the job requiring the education. To be competitive that job must relate to the education and both the education and work experience must be recent.

So how long does the person who agrees to stay home and take care of the family, stay out of the workforce? Now how long are we going to give this person to become competitive for jobs? How will this person be supported during that time? Will this person get the college education needed for a career? Now, how old is this person? Has this person started to have physical problems? It is amazing how many jobs require physical ability and how many employers discriminate against people with physical problems. And age discrimination is a huge problem! The person who delays a career is at a huge disvantage, and is there any compensation for this? Will this person complete an education and have enough time in a career job to raise up in the career and to earn retirement benefits?

If a divorce and a recession come at the same time, this person is screwed! While the person who has always worked will be competitive for jobs, and everyone recognizes this person's value, no one will recognize the value of the person who stayed at home. If in desperation for an income, this person goes from being "just a Housewife" to a janitor, any education this person has won't matter, because potential employers will see a janitor, not a person of high value. Come on, our reality denies the value of the person who stays home to take care of the family, and I have felt attacked for arguing the person who stays home is very valuable.

Someone needs to care for the children, and the person who is supported by the man or woman who stays home and does everything a "homemaker" does has a huge benefit of being supported. Arguing against this because traditionally the person who stays home is the woman, is not a helpful argument for the man or woman who is the one to care for the family.
I have attacked the toxic idea of gender roles, not any women who stay home and take care of the house, the kids, and everything else. I would never attack them, and i absolutely see their value.

Feminists have been saying forever that these women should be paid too, because they are working so hard and their service to the family and society is valuable. So trying to say i am attacking them is just plain ridiculous.

Gender roles, those suck, that is what i have been saying the whole time. Take a step back, breathe, and consider that for a second rather than imagining that i am attacking women who stay at home.
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Old February 28th, 2018, 11:02 AM   #43
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There is a couple i went to high school with, and they got married. They both had jobs, but she made more money than he did, so when they started having children he stopped working and became a stay-at-home dad. He said he loves being able to take care of their kids, and getting the opportunity to be with them, and she can continue her career and support the family financially.

The real problem comes from other people, who have their old gender roles in mind when they give him crap about not being the "bread winner". I told him to not worry about others, and just enjoy being a full time dad, but he said it is really getting to him.

Apparently these old fashioned folks have no problem if it was the other way around, but that is bullshit. It shouldnt matter who is taking care of the kids. And with people in society shoving unrealistic gender roles at him, it is affecting his quality of life. So unfair.


That's basically what we did and it was great. Paying for daycare is one of the stupidest things a young couple can do. After paying for it you end up working all day for little to nothing. All the while someone else is raising your kids along with of a bunch of other peoples kids. Tell your friends fuck anyone who gives them shit. More often then not they are just miserable people projecting their own sadness outwards. Their children will be far better off being around someone day in and day out who actually cares about and is invested in them regardless if they pee sitting down or not. Tell him to find something that he is interested in and try starting a few small businesses. In this day and age all you need is a computer and desire (oh, and to be a capitalist of course) with any luck and thru trial and error by the time the kids go off to school he will have found something that he enjoys. Also look into the unschooling movment.
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Old February 28th, 2018, 11:07 AM   #44
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That's basically what we did and it was great. Paying for daycare is one of the stupidest things a young couple can do. After paying for it you end up working all day for little to nothing. All the while someone else is raising your kids along with of a bunch of other peoples kids. Tell your friends fuck anyone who gives them shit. More often then not they are just miserable people projecting their own sadness outwards. Their children will be far better off being around someone day in and day out who actually cares about and is invested in them regardless if they pee sitting down or not. Tell him to find something that he is interested in and try starting a few small businesses. In this day and age all you need is a computer and desire (oh, and to be a capitalist of course) with any luck and thru trial and error by the time the kids go off to school he will have found something that he enjoys. Also look into the unschooling movment.
My friends, capitalists?!

Are you crazy?

Just kidding
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Old February 28th, 2018, 11:10 AM   #45
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My friends, capitalists?!

Are you crazy?

Just kidding
You never know these days. My kids come home every day laughing about the crazy socialist crap that the schools try and stuff in their grey matter.
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Old February 28th, 2018, 11:13 AM   #46
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The ideal man? We'd probably have to start by saying what qualities we're looking for as ideal. My first suggestion would be to exclude Show Biz & politics - certainly as practiced in the last few decades. Of the political people in the US who might make the cut, I'd suggest Pres. Lincoln.
I'd say, people from hollywood would be suspect, you can't tell if they are acting or not......
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Old February 28th, 2018, 09:10 PM   #47
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The ideal man

I would argue that Aragorn from LOTR would be approaching the ideal man if one were also to add superior intellectual capacities to his character traits as well.

Tribute to Aragorn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvKTrW35iHY&t=186s

Last edited by xMathFanx; February 28th, 2018 at 10:51 PM.
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Old March 1st, 2018, 04:32 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Lyzza View Post
I have attacked the toxic idea of gender roles, not any women who stay home and take care of the house, the kids, and everything else. I would never attack them, and i absolutely see their value.

Feminists have been saying forever that these women should be paid too, because they are working so hard and their service to the family and society is valuable. So trying to say i am attacking them is just plain ridiculous.

Gender roles, those suck, that is what i have been saying the whole time. Take a step back, breathe, and consider that for a second rather than imagining that i am attacking women who stay at home.
I am glad you have gotten to saying the full-time homemaker is a valuable person. How did we appear to have a disagreement?
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Old March 1st, 2018, 04:47 AM   #49
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The ideal man

I would argue that Aragorn from LOTR would be approaching the ideal man if one were also to add superior intellectual capacities to his character traits as well.

Tribute to Aragorn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvKTrW35iHY&t=186s
Very sexy. For sure when invaders are coming such a man is essential. Women can also be good fighters but are they less likely to have the strength of a male, and the children are more apt to survive if the female can run with them and hide, but often this was not possible. Having a man who would defend against invaders would have been very important. Rifles surely improved the females chance of winning violent conflicts.

When the man is also moved by tears this is a plus because compassion is equally as important as the ability and willingness to fight, or labor hard in bad conditions, or put his life on the line for better working conditions and wages.
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Old March 1st, 2018, 04:49 AM   #50
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You never know these days. My kids come home every day laughing about the crazy socialist crap that the schools try and stuff in their grey matter.
What do think is civilized behavior and the human potential? I volunteer when the temporary homeless shelters are activated and I am horrified by our failure to do better for our fellow human beings. I just don't think that failure is very civilized of us.

Last edited by Athena; March 1st, 2018 at 04:53 AM.
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