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Old March 1st, 2018, 03:06 PM   #61
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The recent movies were very pretty - & misleading

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@Hoosier

The discussion is about the "ideal" man--it is not intended to be an easy standard to match (or surpass)
Tolkien's Aragon of Lord of the Rings? No, he's the ideal warrior-king, perhaps. In a desperate time of war to the death, defending virtue & civilization against the darkness, perhaps he'd be a good exemplar.

But he's hardly human. The movie version of Aragorn appears to be in his 40s or so, when the novels have him @ 87 years old @ the height of the War of the Ring. That's well past a human lifespan, unless you want to invoke the first men of the Old Testament, for instance. & @ 87 years, Aragorn is supposed to be in the prime of his life - his ancestors being long-lived themselves (when not assassinated).
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Old March 1st, 2018, 03:23 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by hoosier88 View Post
Tolkien's Aragon of Lord of the Rings? No, he's the ideal warrior-king, perhaps. In a desperate time of war to the death, defending virtue & civilization against the darkness, perhaps he'd be a good exemplar.

But he's hardly human. The movie version of Aragorn appears to be in his 40s or so, when the novels have him @ 87 years old @ the height of the War of the Ring. That's well past a human lifespan, unless you want to invoke the first men of the Old Testament, for instance. & @ 87 years, Aragorn is supposed to be in the prime of his life - his ancestors being long-lived themselves (when not assassinated).
@Hoosier

I am discussing the Aragorn from the movies--who is clearly a man (though with some extra qualities, as it is a Fantasy novel). Also, this is missing the more relevant point of personal character attributes rather than details of the particular story. Ideally, women (overwhelmingly) prefer the 'Hero' archetype that is both a High Status Alpha leader & compassionate, loving, kind, with a strong moral backbone. Now, if superior intellectual capacities were added to Aragorn's character, then this would indeed be approaching the paragon of Male archetype.
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Old March 1st, 2018, 05:03 PM   #63
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I am glad you have gotten to saying the full-time homemaker is a valuable person. How did we appear to have a disagreement?
Idk, to be honest. It has been an issue for as long as i have known, to support homemakers and even push for them to receive payment for their labor as well because it is so important to society.
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Old March 1st, 2018, 05:04 PM   #64
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Whirling Elvish

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Originally Posted by xMathFanx View Post
@Hoosier

I am discussing the Aragorn from the movies--who is clearly a man (though with some extra qualities, as it is a Fantasy novel). Also, this is missing the more relevant point of personal character attributes rather than details of the particular story. Ideally, women (overwhelmingly) prefer the 'Hero' archetype that is both a High Status Alpha leader & compassionate, loving, kind, with a strong moral backbone. Now, if superior intellectual capacities were added to Aragorn's character, then this would indeed be approaching the paragon of Male archetype.
(laughing)

Yah, Tolkien may have spent all of 5 minutes working on his female characters. That's why there are so many of them in the LOTR. & the Hobbit movie prequel is basically all padding, so far as the women go. Nah, Aragon doesn't count as an archetype (now it's Jung?) He's not nearly human enough - fine for Middle Earth, perhaps - but too far gone for mere mortals. I suppose he could be some kind of Platonic Form - he's that far beyond the Pale.
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Old March 1st, 2018, 05:16 PM   #65
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(laughing)
Interesting--Then, you find your own ignorance, stupidity, and insecurity as amusing as I do?
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Old March 1st, 2018, 05:18 PM   #66
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Yah, Tolkien may have spent all of 5 minutes working on his female characters.
Actually, Eowyn is a great female character written in a time period where her character strengths go against the grain of societal/cultural norms
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Old March 1st, 2018, 06:34 PM   #67
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Interesting--Then, you find your own ignorance, stupidity, and insecurity as amusing as I do?
A pleasure, I'm sure.
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Old March 2nd, 2018, 05:33 AM   #68
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I also work w/ the homeless. When i stayed home w/ my kids i volunteered around once a week and when they went back to school i turned it into a full time job. I did that for a few years but the politics of non profits got to me and i had to step away.

I believe in NAP and try and live my life accordingly and have tried to pass that onto my kids.
You really got my attention by saying you worked with the homeless. I work with a couple of men who are really great, and a couple of the gals have been there forever. It is so good when everything is working in harmony and so awful when politics gets in the way and makes the situation intolerable.

I hate it when people use words I don't understand. Makes me feel so stupid. What is NAP. I don't think you are talking about the short sleep many of us enjoy in the afternoon.

This thread is about the ideal man so this is the time to say what is really good about some men. I love a man who stays cool and simply holds his ground. I am jealous of men because when I try to get the fighting guys to calm down they just ignore me, but when the man in charge walks into the room, they immediately calm down.

There is a huge and important difference between our peacekeepers and the police. Some policemen can be peacekeepers, but many only know getting control by being intimidating and they became police officers because they like being controlling and intimidating. However, trying to have control by being intimidating can escalate the problem. On the other hand, we have peacekeepers separate from the police department, and these folks de-escalate the situation. It is beautiful to watch them in action. The peacekeepers are thinking people using their minds to de-escalate the situation. That is very different from relying on a show of force.
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Old March 2nd, 2018, 05:49 AM   #69
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Actually, Eowyn is a great female character written in a time period where her character strengths go against the grain of societal/cultural norms
Please, explain character strengths that go against the grain of society. This is akin to my efforts to differentiate the different styles of taking control that are used by men. I think our idea of the ideal male and ideal female influences how we choose to behave. We had a generation of women who acted like children because it was perceived as attractive to the men who cared for these women.

How do we manage this and keep the thread comprehensive? Perhaps, the ideal man will find the self-assured and capable woman attractive, and he will encourage her to be all she can be. He will not feel threatened if she goes to college and has a career, or succeeds as an artist or writer, but he will be delighted by her achievements.
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Old March 2nd, 2018, 05:59 AM   #70
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@Hollywood

Note the word "ideal"
I understand that.
But one thing that is important in setting any sort of goal is to make that goal reasonably achievable. One thing to keep in mind even though one man man be "ideal" to perform one function/job that does not mean he's ideal for all functions/jobs.
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