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Old August 8th, 2012, 10:06 AM   #1
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I'm putting this under Conspiracy Theories because this is a mere theory on a possible conspiracy



The Theory: In 1996, Congress and the Clinton administration allowed for DOMA to be passed swiftly through the Houses. At the time DOMA was presented as a way of protecting states and upholding the majority's views on human sexuality. The GLBT community has been pointing to DOMA as a tragic "setback" to gay rights ever since. But was DOMA really a setback, or a subtle victory pre-planned by the Republican party? What if the republicans, as well as those democratics with "traditional values," used DOMA to turn same-sex marriage into a permanently unresolved issue for decades to come?



Let's look at the events following DOMA: the initial passage of this legislation in 1996 was not met with the extreme opposition it would have met today. Members of Congress and both Houses were not held responsible for their actions and bombarded with the protests members now face today for their anti-gay stances. Essentially, DOMA was passed during a time when there was plenty of other economic and social issues to distract the opposition. Part one of the conspiracy, cripple the chance of SSM in America while the opposition is distracted and/or caught offguard.



Flashforward to the Bush administration and the SSM debate attempting to gain new momentum. Oops, too late. Republican president Bush is certainly standing by DOMA and rejecting any and all possibility of SSM and gay rights being considered on a federal level. Once again, the GLBT community find themselves blocked by this federal "stonewall". Would they find hope in a democratic president, of course not. DOMA not only freed individual states from having to give SSM any consideration, it freed every future president from having to become directly involved in the debate. Oh sure Obama can talk till he's blue in the face about his "evolving" views, but did he make any move to touch DOMA and bring the SSM debate back to a federal level? Hell no, not with elections coming up.



So what exactly did the republicans win with DOMA? A country divided up in a manner that would have made KKK members of the 1960s giddy with glee if they knew such a thing was possible. Gay couples married in some states, not recognized fully in others, and completely banned from being married in even more. Ten more years can pass, but this division will still exist. DOMA could be thrown out, but this division was still exist. Why? Because the republicans found a loophole in 1996 that would ensure the United States of America will never be a country where SSM extends to everywhere and everyone. Republicans realized the "people" of each individual state in this country will do their dirty work of rejecting or outright banning SSM. With those simple words "it's an issue for the state to decide," a complete and comprehensive victory was lost to the GLBT community.
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Old August 8th, 2012, 10:12 AM   #2
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The wise course would be for the feds to recognize SSM by allowing a SS couple a federal tax deduction. That would be within delegated constitutional authority and a wise first step.



Mandating that states to recognize SSM isn't the way to go, imo.
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Old August 8th, 2012, 10:28 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XanderCrews View Post
The Theory: In 1996, Congress and the Clinton administration allowed for DOMA to be passed swiftly through the Houses. At the time DOMA was presented as a way of protecting states and upholding the majority's views on human sexuality. The GLBT community has been pointing to DOMA as a tragic "setback" to gay rights ever since. But was DOMA really a setback, or a subtle victory pre-planned by the Republican party? What if the republicans, as well as those democratics with "traditional values," used DOMA to turn same-sex marriage into a permanently unresolved issue for decades to come?


Actually what they unwittingly did is set up a guaranteed loss before SCOTUS, as well as a guaranteed challenge to a blatantly unconstitutional law. DOMA will be history by this time next year.



Yes, they might have delayed full equality a few years by passing DOMA (and the mini-DOMAs in the states), but they also created the precise reason why SCOTUS will establish heightened scrutiny for sexual orientation. In other words, the dumb bigots shot themselves in the foot. I think Bill Clinton and Richard Socarides knew that too.



Had the GOP not turned marriage into a federal issue, it likely would have remained in the states for another decade or two - just like how bans on mixed-race marriage persisted at the state level long after the 14th amendment was passed. But because it was federalized, and because of the anti-gay animus (and religious motives) present in the legislative record at both the state and federal level, they've made it far more likely that a Loving v Virginia style ruling will make marriage equality the law nationwide.
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Old August 8th, 2012, 10:29 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
The wise course would be for the feds to recognize SSM by allowing a SS couple a federal tax deduction. That would be within delegated constitutional authority and a wise first step.


The wise course (for the bigots) would have been for them to pass civil unions for gays, and thereby establish a separate but equal treatment that would take longer to challenge. But of course it's the notion of legal equality that really bothers the dumb bigots, so they've generally banned civil unions for gays.





Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
Mandating that states to recognize SSM isn't the way to go, imo.


Why? Should we have permitted state bans on mixed-race marriage to persist under the banner of state's rights? Or is racial discrimination somehow worse than gender discrimination, and states should be free to discriminate on the basis of gender?
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Old August 8th, 2012, 10:46 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skrekk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by XanderCrews' timestamp='1344449184' post='419653

The Theory: In 1996, Congress and the Clinton administration allowed for DOMA to be passed swiftly through the Houses. At the time DOMA was presented as a way of protecting states and upholding the majority's views on human sexuality. The GLBT community has been pointing to DOMA as a tragic "setback" to gay rights ever since. But was DOMA really a setback, or a subtle victory pre-planned by the Republican party? What if the republicans, as well as those democratics with "traditional values," used DOMA to turn same-sex marriage into a permanently unresolved issue for decades to come?


Actually what they unwittingly did is set up a guaranteed loss before SCOTUS, as well as a guaranteed challenge to a blatantly unconstitutional law. DOMA will be history by this time next year.



Yes, they might have delayed full equality a few years by passing DOMA (and the mini-DOMAs in the states), but they also created the precise reason why SCOTUS will establish heightened scrutiny for sexual orientation. In other words, the dumb bigots shot themselves in the foot. I think Bill Clinton and Richard Socarides knew that too.



Had the GOP not turned marriage into a federal issue, it likely would have remained in the states for another decade or two - just like how bans on mixed-race marriage persisted at the state level long after the 14th amendment was passed. But because it was federalized, and because of the anti-gay animus (and religious motives) present in the legislative record at both the state and federal level, they've made it far more likely that a Loving v Virginia style ruling will make marriage equality the law nationwide.


So, you believe that the federal government will at some point take up the issue of SSM and eventually stand behind it? Do you believe SSM marriage will be recognized and legalized in every state?



I don't know where you are, but from where I'm standing, that's not going to happen for many years. Your hopes on "a few years" is impossible with the states allowing citizens the power to force referendums and conservative governors being allowed to pass state laws based on their personal, religious views. None of that is going to change in the next five to ten years regardless of SCOTUS. That's what happens when you drown an issue in bureacratic sludge and the opposition is too scattered to form one single force of protest.
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Old August 8th, 2012, 10:55 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skrekk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat' timestamp='1344449552' post='419657
The wise course would be for the feds to recognize SSM by allowing a SS couple a federal tax deduction. That would be within delegated constitutional authority and a wise first step.


The wise course (for the bigots) would have been for them to pass civil unions for gays, and thereby establish a separate but equal treatment that would take longer to challenge. But of course it's the notion of legal equality that really bothers the dumb bigots, so they've generally banned civil unions for gays.





Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
Mandating that states to recognize SSM isn't the way to go, imo.


Why? Should we have permitted state bans on mixed-race marriage to persist under the banner of state's rights? Or is racial discrimination somehow worse than gender discrimination, and states should be free to discriminate on the basis of gender?


Stop with the boilerplate skrekk, please. I've read the same stuff thousands of times here.



In any war, and that's what the SSM "debate" is, a smart commander lays out a battle plan to achieve victory. Not that it's likely to happen today or tomorrow, but allowing SS couples a federal tax deduction would, or should, be considered winning a battle, not the war, but a battle.



Your oft- repeated all-or-nothing attitude is the attitude of an immature and unevolved mind hiding behind "high principles." A dumb bigot and a dumb commander are bunkmates. Imo.
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Old August 8th, 2012, 11:00 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XanderCrews View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by skrekk' timestamp='1344450521' post='419661

[quote name='XanderCrews' timestamp='1344449184' post='419653']

The Theory: In 1996, Congress and the Clinton administration allowed for DOMA to be passed swiftly through the Houses. At the time DOMA was presented as a way of protecting states and upholding the majority's views on human sexuality. The GLBT community has been pointing to DOMA as a tragic "setback" to gay rights ever since. But was DOMA really a setback, or a subtle victory pre-planned by the Republican party? What if the republicans, as well as those democratics with "traditional values," used DOMA to turn same-sex marriage into a permanently unresolved issue for decades to come?


Actually what they unwittingly did is set up a guaranteed loss before SCOTUS, as well as a guaranteed challenge to a blatantly unconstitutional law. DOMA will be history by this time next year.



Yes, they might have delayed full equality a few years by passing DOMA (and the mini-DOMAs in the states), but they also created the precise reason why SCOTUS will establish heightened scrutiny for sexual orientation. In other words, the dumb bigots shot themselves in the foot. I think Bill Clinton and Richard Socarides knew that too.



Had the GOP not turned marriage into a federal issue, it likely would have remained in the states for another decade or two - just like how bans on mixed-race marriage persisted at the state level long after the 14th amendment was passed. But because it was federalized, and because of the anti-gay animus (and religious motives) present in the legislative record at both the state and federal level, they've made it far more likely that a Loving v Virginia style ruling will make marriage equality the law nationwide.


So, you believe that the federal government will at some point take up the issue of SSM and eventually stand behind it? Do you believe SSM marriage will be recognized and legalized in every state?



I don't know where you are, but from where I'm standing, that's not going to happen for many years. Your hopes on "a few years" is impossible with the states allowing citizens the power to force referendums and conservative governors being allowed to pass state laws based on their personal, religious views. None of that is going to change in the next five to ten years regardless of SCOTUS. That's what happens when you drown an issue in bureacratic sludge and the opposition is too scattered to form one single force of protest.

[/quote]



When mixed-race marriage became the law nationwide in 1967, only 27% of the public supported such marriages.........and far, far fewer in the south did. At this point in time 54% of the public already supports same-sex marriage. The tide turned against the dumb bigots a long time ago.



And yes, DOMA will almost certainly be history by this time next year. The Prop h8 case might take a little longer as it will depend on how the court reviews the issue (and the scope of the review), but the case is set up perfectly to establish marriage equality throughout the country. Very likely Prop h8 will be bundled with other challenges to the state bans.
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Old August 8th, 2012, 11:04 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by skrekk' timestamp='1344450591' post='419662

[quote name='imaginethat' timestamp='1344449552' post='419657']The wise course would be for the feds to recognize SSM by allowing a SS couple a federal tax deduction. That would be within delegated constitutional authority and a wise first step.


The wise course (for the bigots) would have been for them to pass civil unions for gays, and thereby establish a separate but equal treatment that would take longer to challenge. But of course it's the notion of legal equality that really bothers the dumb bigots, so they've generally banned civil unions for gays.





Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
Mandating that states to recognize SSM isn't the way to go, imo.


Why? Should we have permitted state bans on mixed-race marriage to persist under the banner of state's rights? Or is racial discrimination somehow worse than gender discrimination, and states should be free to discriminate on the basis of gender?


Stop with the boilerplate skrekk, please. I've read the same stuff thousands of times here.



In any war, and that's what the SSM "debate" is, a smart commander lays out a battle plan to achieve victory. Not that it's likely to happen today or tomorrow, but allowing SS couples a federal tax deduction would, or should, be considered winning a battle, not the war, but a battle.



Your oft- repeated all-or-nothing attitude is the attitude of an immature and unevolved mind hiding behind "high principles." A dumb bigot and a dumb commander are bunkmates. Imo.

[/quote]



I'm just saying what the facts are. I understand that your neoconfederate views find that intolerable, and that you find racial discrimination distasteful but not gender or sexual orientation discrimination.



The simple fact is that if the dumb bigots hadn't created DOMA and hadn't banned civil unions, they likely could have forestalled the constitutional challenge for a bit longer. Marriage equality would still eventually be the law nationwide, but it might have been put off another decade or two due to lack of standing. But by their actions the dumb bigots have created the legal environment for a ruling in favor of equality. And simply passing SS benefits would have drawn attention to the basic equal protection violation (ie, the state is recognizing the relationship, but failing to grant all the rights given to people in similar relationships).











Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
In any war, and that's what the SSM "debate" is, a smart commander lays out a battle plan to achieve victory.


And that's precisely what Ted Olson and David Boies did. They appear to be very smart commanders indeed, and they don't agree with your views at all - not one bit.
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Old August 8th, 2012, 11:31 AM   #9
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I'm just saying what the facts are. I understand that your neoconfederate views find that intolerable, and that you find racial discrimination distasteful but not gender or sexual orientation discrimination.


I don't know how to put this delicately, but your immediate resort to casting me as a "neoconfederate" displays better than anything I could do to show your bigotry, and your immaturity.



And, your stupidity, your real, unabashed stupidity, for dissing an ally, a good ally btw, one who isn't turned against a good cause just because you, a bigot, is for it. Every group of people standing for a good cause has a few people who excel in working against the cause.



In the gay rights realm, you're one of those people. But, despite your spite, your demagoguery, and your bigotry, this good cause will move forward ... just slower than it would otherwise.
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Old August 8th, 2012, 11:37 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by skrekk' timestamp='1344452688' post='419667

I'm just saying what the facts are. I understand that your neoconfederate views find that intolerable, and that you find racial discrimination distasteful but not gender or sexual orientation discrimination.


I don't know how to put this delicately, but your immediate resort to casting me as a "neoconfederate" displays better than anything I could do to show your bigotry, and your immaturity.



And, your stupidity, your real, unabashed stupidity, for dissing an ally, a good ally btw, one who isn't turned against a good cause just because you, a bigot, is for it. Every group of people standing for a good cause has a few people who excel in working against the cause.



In the gay rights realm, you're one of those people. But, despite your spite, your demagoguery, and your bigotry, this good cause will move forward ... just slower than it would otherwise.


As a Ron Paul supporter you've made your views very clear - you support marriage equality in theory, but you think other things are more important than the civil rights of people who aren't you.



You think that gays should be pacified by a token like SS benefits, lest the bigots be upset by treating gays as fully equal citizens. What you don't seem to recognize is that those dumb bigots have been upset every step of the way - they've opposed even the smallest measure of equality (and many still want to criminalize homosexuality). Nor do you recognize that a neoconfederate like Ron Paul is one of the people who has worked against equality, not for it.
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