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Old June 24th, 2012, 03:54 AM   #1
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Many with a firm grasp on American history clearly detect a showdown in the making between federal beaurocrats in Washington and Governors of the States. The undeniable trend of an every growing, heavy-handed, rule by fiat government has become the fuse on the powder keg ready to explode in the coming years. And historians note a great similarity of the present to the causes leading to our most gloomy historical period, the Civil War.



In the 1800’s freedom and State’s Rights were the primary issues of the day and it would be hard to argue they are not front and center today. The slavery issue has been replaced by the full frontal assault on the personal freedoms of every American, but the age old battle of State’s Rights remains largely unchanged. The biggest difference from the 1800’s, of course, is the degree of entanglement between the States and the federal government. No one in the 1800’s would have predicted the federal government would have their fingers in the pies of everything from education to food. And now State governors are caught in the vice between administering their States independently and complying with an ever increasing mountain of mandates.



My advice to the governors. Just say “No”.



When the President acts by fiat and creates immigration policy in the Oval Office, just say no. When the EPA does an end run around Congress and invents their own carbon tax, just say no. When the Justice Department sues your State for attempting to clean up your voter registration records, just say no.



There is a clear delineation of power in our Republic and the past century has seen that structure turned on its head. Congress is either unwilling or unable to stop this growing trend so now only Governors of the States are left to halt the encroachment of power. In the past Governors have been hesitant to push back against federal seizure of power due to the repercussion surely to follow. Withdrawal of funding, costly legal battles and political war wounds made the price too costly to pay. But budget busting mandates out of Washington have placed State leaders in a no win situation and future obligations make the situation unsustainable.



The battles must be fought now before hostilities increase beyond the point of no return. Each Governor and each State will pay a heavy price for defying dictates from above. But the price to be paid now will be a bargain compared to that in the future if the can is once again kicked down the road. Historians understand the bargain before us now and even a few political leaders understand it as well. The American people would be well served by dusting off their history books and applying those lessons from the past to allow us make sense of the chaos of today.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 01:52 PM   #2
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And who wrote that?
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Old June 24th, 2012, 03:55 PM   #3
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I just Googled some of the phrases, and they didn't show up on Google, except for this thread, that is. It doesn't look like it was copied from someplace else on the web. Don't you think Podium Pentothol has the writing skills to have personally written something this insightful?
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Old June 24th, 2012, 05:50 PM   #4
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Pentothal has great personality writing but when it comes down to his main point in his opening posts about states rights, he's simply wrong. Wrong because it has already been debated and lost decades ago. However, here's the theology behind his ideology and why I disagree with it. The world view being espoused by Pentothal, libertarians like Ron Paul, the tenthers and all the people who are saying lets go back to the fundamentals of the constitution, is that they basically want to go back to the pre-Civil War era. An era when we had a very weak federal government and very strong states. States that were so strong that they felt that they could seceded from the union at that time and Abraham Lincoln said Mmmmmmm, no. And of course we later had a Civil War about that issue (slavery).



Now today we have a strong government and relatively weak states. The argument was made in the 1960s after Brown vs Board of Education in 1954 ruled that Plessy vs Ferguson (the 1888 USSC case that establish separate but equal) was wrong and the USSC reversed itself and said, no more racial distinctions. The USSC was saying that this is the province of the federal government and that the federal government at the federal level can't discriminate. So Washington D.C. which is administered by congress you couldn't discriminate for example against minorities at a food restaurant after 1954. However, at the state level the federal government didn't have the power to reach into a state and say 'you must stop the local store from discriminating against other people'.



In the Kennedy-Nixon debates in October of 1960, Nixon and Kennedy are talking about this very issue. Kennedy said 'no this is an appropriate place for the involvement of the federal government' and Nixon said 'no we should go to the chain store owners and ask them behave' but shouldn't have the power to force them.



Transcript:



"I have talked to Negro mothers. I've heard them explain - try to explain - how they tell their children how they can go into a store and buy a loaf of bread but then can't go into that store and sit at the counter and get a Coca Cola. This is wrong, and we have to do something about it. So, under the circumstances, what do we do? Well what we do is what the Attorney-General of the United States did under the direction of the President: call in the owners of chain stores and get them to take action."



Richard Nixon is saying to call in the owners of the chain stores and ask them to behave nicely. Here is John Kennedy's respobds to Richard Nixon in 1960.



"Well, Mr. Nixon hasn't discussed the two basic questions: what is going to be done and what will be his policy on implementing the Supreme Court decision of 1954? Giving aid to schools technically that are trying to carry out the decision is not the great question. Secondly, what's he going to do to provide fair employment? He's been the head of the Committee on Government Contracts that's carried out two cases, both in the District of Columbia. He has not indicated his support of an attempt to provide fair employment practices around the country, so that everyone can get a job regardless of their race or color. Nor has he indicated that he will support Title Three, which would give the Attorney General additional powers to protect Constitutional rights. These are the great questions: equality of education in school. About two percent of our population of white people are - is illiterate, ten per cent of our colored population. Sixty to seventy percent of our colored children do not finish high school. These are the questions in these areas that the North and South, East and West are entitled to know. What will be the leadership of the president in these areas to provide equality of opportunity for employment? Equality of opportunity in the field of housing, which could be done on all federal supported housing by a stroke of the president's pen. What will be done to provide equality of education in all sections of the United States? Those are the questions to which the president must establish a moral tone and moral leadership. And I can assure you that if I'm elected president we will do so."http://www.presidenc...1#axzz1ylM7wqjo





And here's the actual debate. 10 minutes and 32 seconds into the debate in the video



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oM_tJ...layer_embedded



So what happened after the Civil Rights Act was passed in the mid 1960s is that the lunch counters for example in Alabama is arguably a state incorporated business with local people and the federal government doesn't have the right to enforce civil rights there, but in the constitution it explicitly says that the federal government has the right to regulate Commerce between and among the various states. It's known as the Commerce Clause.



Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3, of the Constitution empowers Congress



"to regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among several States, and with the Indian Tribes."



So what Bobby Kennedy began and Lyndon Johnson finish was to say that restaurants for example in Alabama that is discriminating against people based on race, those restaurants making the argument that the federal government can't go in and force to integrate, but that restaurant is serving mustard, ketchup, pickles, rice, cups, tables, and etc all made from different state. So the food that that restaurant is serving, is the product of interstate commerce and therefore they are INVOLVED in interstate commerce, and therefore the federal government has the power to say that that restaurant can't discriminate against people because you are engaged in interstate commerce.



So this argument has been debated and lost by people who advocate for states rights because our federal government has concluded in the 1960s (and taken to the Supreme Court) that if those business are engaged in interstate commerce, then they must inform with federal law.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 05:56 PM   #5
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See, personality writing is fun.....but tiring. Believe it or not I spent just about 2 hours writing that finding quotes, dates, and video.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 07:07 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Bookworm View Post
I just Googled some of the phrases, and they didn't show up on Google, except for this thread, that is. It doesn't look like it was copied from someplace else on the web. Don't you think Podium Pentothol has the writing skills to have personally written something this insightful?


it never occured to me that podium pentothal didnt write it, it sounds like his ideology in his own words to me. and i think a lot of it is right, there is a similar situation in australia where we have state and federal governments and increasingly the federal government is getting involved in traditional state issues. however, the world has changed since the 1800s. rather than reducing federal power and giving things back to the states, it may work better to reduce states role and have more things nationally determined. in a world of instant communication and cheap and easy travel it makes sense that many things are uniform accross the country. it is a silly situation if there is a law in one state that someone can bypass simply by driving an hour or so accross the border.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 07:21 PM   #7
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State rights is code word for legalized racism. Well, at least here in the sates.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 11:59 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Fayt View Post
State rights is code word for legalized racism. Well, at least here in the sates.


examples: in australia we have very variable regulations on car registration. i know people who live in victoria where there are strict rules about old cars, but on paper have their car registered in a different state. victorias regulations have become completely pointless. school starts at a different age in different states. one state has mandatory sentencing, no others do. it would make more sense for the overall policy to be uniform, and the role of the states should be administering such policy rather than making it.



australias constitution, and americas, were written in an era of horse and cart and steam train and sailing ships, the post office employed fast horse riders, radio didnt exist, let alone tv and the internet, and people wrote the constitutions with feather quills. today anyone with a mobile phone can put video footage onto the internet in seconds and travel is fast and cheap, internationally never mind to the next state. many people today work in jobs that didnt exist when the constitution was written. the nuts and bolts of how to govern society today is very very different to how it was centuries ago.



yes we need smaller government, but it also needs to be comparable everywhere. you might live in new york, but you have family in california, business deals in florida and are travelling to washington next week. do you really want to have to deal with different laws in each of these places?
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Old June 25th, 2012, 03:48 AM   #9
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First off, my hat’s off to Fayt to taking the time to put together a well presented case for a strong central government. It takes time and thought and I always appreciate the effort regardless of my own views.



Making the leap from greater State’s Rights to racism, however, is quite a leap indeed. I can’t imagine how that logic works but the presumption seems to be that slavery will return if we diminish the power of the central government. If not slavery maybe she meant legalized racism, not sure. I won’t go into detail here but I’d love to see a thread started on legalized racism because it’s alive and well in America and propagated by those who profit from its practice (this means you Obama, Holder, Jackson, etc).



But back to State’s Rights. The main problem with a heavy handed federal government is that one size does not fit all. For example, stating that everybody who earns over $250,000 should be tarred and feathered throws a national net over a group that is too diverse to categorize economically. Making $250K in Dime Box, Texas would put you in tall grass without a doubt, but making the same in NY or CA is a whole different ballgame. The cost of living is completely different.



The same is true of ObamaCare. Forcing everyone to pay for breast exams or other female-only procedures is unfair. The construction company owner with all male employees could find a much cheaper policy if it were allowed to be tailored to their needs. Just like all parents should be given the choice from multiple policies that govern what age their children remain covered. One set of parents may choose age 21 in their policy while another set of parent may choose age 26. And single citizens can choose a policy with no child coverage. More choices equal more fairness no matter how you slice it.



The original idea revolved around the States being 13 different “experiments”. One State might decide to emphasize education with their tax levels and spending. Another State may decide to concentrate their resources in other areas instead. As citizens of the United States we could therefore have a choice to live in the State which we determine is most suited to our own lifestyles. More choice offers more freedom to the citizens.



And the other part of that equation is that certain fundamental rights exist that are national, not regional. I think we could all agree that basic human rights should be respected and few would argue against national policies protecting those rights. But things can get awfully dicey these days when you start talking about “rights”.



Some people believe we have the “right” to a public education. We do not. Others believe that Sandra Fluke has the “right” to “free” contraceptives. She does not. So we’ve somehow moved way beyond fundamental human rights such as freedom from slavery or discrimination. And every time a new “right” is invented by Progressives the federal government becomes more powerful and State governments less so. We’re still working on the slavery and discrimination parts of things and for all our exclamations about being an “advanced society” we just don’t seem able to get the basics right yet.



Anyone care to start a thread about slavery in the U.S.? It’s a big bad problem that still exists yet receives zero media coverage. How about we work on that one before we get ourselves in a tizzy over some college student that can’t keep off her back?
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Old June 25th, 2012, 03:49 AM   #10
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yes we need smaller government, but it also needs to be comparable everywhere. you might live in new york, but you have family in california, business deals in florida and are travelling to washington next week. do you really want to have to deal with different laws in each of these places?


Yes I do
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