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Old January 26th, 2013, 03:11 AM   #11
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corporate taxes should be cut to less than 10%


eliminate taxing of income from overseas


flat tax for individuals



reduce capital gains taxes to less then 10 %


no inheritance taxes


outlaw unfunded pensions
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Old January 26th, 2013, 06:37 AM   #12
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What would happen if we treated everyone the same, regardless of financial or social class?
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Old January 26th, 2013, 06:43 AM   #13
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i think the following need to be eliminated over the next 25 years:


1. (direct taxation of citizens by the federal government to re-align with the Constitution) and then apportion them among the several states.* States then pay up to the Feds.* So if i dont like Ohio's rate I can move to another.

2. we need to as a society decide what level of taxation (when totaling up it all) should be the ceiling highest level irrespective of income.* progressive taxation keeps people poor and keeps rich rich.* it stops small businesses from competing with larger ones who get corporate welfare.

3. we need to totally eliminate corporate welfare.* when a corporation pays taxes they get to write things off.* no more.* just a flat rate.* no more loopholes.* a dollar is a dollar and it gets taxed the same for Peter as it does for GE.

4. we should shrink the size of government.* the safety net as people call it are going to have to be facilitated by the government closest to the people impacted.* local and state ones.........how much determined by state.* why?* because if New York starts handing out freebies and punishing the productive then maybe the productive will move to a state that won't.* it would force each state to stand on their own and not rely on Federal printing presses which is causing an immoral amount of debt.

5.* we need to completely revisit money and what it is and who makes it and what its value is based on.* the constitution says congress is that party.* how the hell we have a federal reserve totally mystifies me.* they go at the same time the IRS shrinks to becoming a simple collection box for the set tax payments.* no more need for the longer than the bible tax code.* i could write up a simple tax system that would fit on one page and no one would have any complaints about fairness issues any more.* everyone realistically able to work would be treated the same.* everyone realistically not able to would be treated fairly with kindness as well.

6.* congress doesn't get a paycheck until they balance the budget for that year.* if one additional dollar is spent by anyone beyond what is budgeted then they go to jail.* you need monies allocated?* budget it.* balance it.

7.* absolute term limits for everyone in power in government.* 2 terms as mayor.* 2 terms on the board of education.* 2 terms as state rep.* 2 terms as state senator.* 2 terms as governor.* 2 terms as congressman.* 2 terms as senator.* 2 terms as president.* period.* no exceptions.* no kings, no executive orders.* truly limited balanced powers.* if the president needs war he gets 90 days and not a second more without congressional declaration of war.* no more imperial militarism.* no more imperial occupations.

8.* if government imposes rules or actions on others then it applies to them first.



until we take measures such as the above we will continue to decline as a civilization by having some animals being more equal than others.* the preferential treatment situations are pissing me off and are clearly counterproductive as a society.
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Old January 26th, 2013, 06:53 AM   #14
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Podium Pentothal" data-cid="458155" data-time="1359214643">What would happen if we treated everyone the same, regardless of financial or social class?</blockquote>


all hell would break loose because some animals are more equal than others.* and the ones who are more equal would flip out.* the ones who are treated as serfs and slaves to a growing out of control government become over time less and less productive by choice.* and the innovators decide not to make that invention.


i have 4 very good ones in my mind speaking of which.* i don't dare pen them for when i do government would collect half or more of my productivity.* so i go on a Galt's Gulch type strike from doing it.* they cannot at this point jailbreak my mind.* it stays 100% mine so long as i don't share it.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 08:30 AM   #15
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I'm curious about this claim. Now to put things in perspective, I think ALL subsidies and perks given to ANYONE should be ended.

But what is meant by corporate welfare? I keep seeing this claim and find that it significantly lacks in substance. Is it tax breaks? Is it how they account for their expenses in tax treatments?

When people use the term "welfare", I assume that the Government is stealing tax payer money and handing it out to big corporations. Is that what is happening?
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Old January 31st, 2013, 12:15 AM   #16
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Our discussions normally revolve around national politics but this particular thread could best be illustrated by examining local government actions. Besides, the results are the same, they just seem more real when they’re close to home.

When we talk about our local safety net we must place priorities on services. First responders such as fire and police would top the list. From there, we move down the list to community services such as schools, woman’s shelters, food banks, counseling programs, and the like. And once our list is in place the trick is to examine how each safety net item is treated historically.

This is where things get dicey. One would think that services that top the list would receive top priority at all times. But the opposite is happens in real life, though we don’t think about it much. What happens when budgets get tight and city leaders look for places to cut? Do they start at the bottom of the list to do their trimming? No, they cut at the top. Fire and police are the first budgets to go.

This runs counter to the sentiment of the average citizen. Of course we want first responders to be fully funded and to be at the ready when we need them. We really, really do want them to fight crime and put out our fires. But no, they are expendable to those who are in constant campaign mode. Better to make sure that park gets built on the poor side of town than to protect the citizens if you are a politician.

So I repeat, politician’s priorities are upside down with those of the average citizen. This is true at the local level, and this is true at the national level as well. I feel we should take care of first things first. Ensure our primary safety net is up and running at optimum levels. Then, and only then, should we dabble with other items lower on our list of priorities.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 06:43 AM   #17
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Only 2% of the population are on actual welfare. Government subsidies to corporations amount to much more than what is spent on actual welfare.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 06:54 AM   #18
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Here's a good article that shows how the rich benefit from government more than the average person does, with a little extra tidbit at the end about the idea of a citizens dividend, like they get in Alaska under that socialist system that Sarah Palin had no problem with :

The Rich Get More From Government Than Anyone

The Rich Get More From Government Than Anyone

The Cost of Corporate Welfare and Rent-Seeking

When an issue becomes popular on both halves of the political spectrum, then those of us who’re off that spectrum and into geonomics feel encouraged. We trim, blend, and append two 2012 on subsidizing the wealthy from (1) Common Dreams on the left, Jly 16, by P. Buchheit, and (2) National Review on the right, Jly 25, by V. de Rugy.
by Paul Buchheit and by Veronique de Rugy

5 Reasons the Rich Need Gov't More Than the Rest of Us
Did wealthy individuals and corporations make it on their own? There are at least five good reasons why the wealthiest Americans need government as much as the rest of us, and probably more.

1. Security

The police, emergency services, and National Guard are trained to focus on crimes against wealth. In the cities, business interests keep the police focused on the homeless and unemployed. Wealthy Americans can rest better at night knowing that the police are "stopping and frisking" in the streets of the poor neighborhoods.

2. Laws and Deregulations

The wealthiest Americans are the main beneficiaries of tax laws, property rights, zoning rules, patent and copyright provisions, trade pacts, antitrust legislation, and contract regulations. Tax loopholes allow them to store over $1 trillion in assets overseas.

Their companies benefit, despite any publicly voiced objections to regulatory agencies, from SBA and SEC guidelines that generally favor business, and from FDA and USDA quality control measures that minimize consumer complaints and product recalls.

There are even anti-antitrust measures, such as the licensing rules that allow the American Medical Association to restrict the number of doctors in the U.S., thereby keeping doctor salaries artificially high.

3. Research and Infrastructure

Private jets use 16 percent of air traffic control resources while paying only 3% of the bill.

Taxpayer-funded research at the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (the Internet) and the National Science Foundation (the Digital Library Initiative) has laid a half-century foundation for technological product development. Well into the 1980s, as companies like Apple and Google and Microsoft and Oracle and Cisco profited from the fastest-growing product revolution in American history, the U.S. Government was still providing half the research funds. Even today 60% of university research is government-supported.

As the super-rich ride in their military-designed armored cars to a financial center globally connected by public fiber optics networks to make a trade guided by publicly funded data mining and artificial intelligence software, they might stop and re-think the old Horatio Alger myth.

4. Subsidies & Tax breaks

Most of the annual $1.3 trillion in "tax expenditures" (special deductions, exemptions, exclusions, credits, and loopholes) goes to the top quintile of taxpayers. One estimate is $250 billion a year just to the richest 1%. Deducting for mortgage interest and rental expense alone returns almost $100 billion a year to millionaires.

280 Fortune 500 companies, which together paid only half of the maximum 35 percent corporate tax rate, received $223 billion in tax subsidies.

The U.S. federal government spent $92 billion on corporate welfare during fiscal year 2006; recipients included Boeing, Xerox, IBM, Motorola, Dow Chemical, and General Electric.

5. Disaster Costs

Exxon paid 2% in U.S. federal taxes from 2008 to 2010, Chevron 4.8%. Yet the petroleum industry readily takes public money for oil spills. Cleanups cost much more than the fines imposed on the companies. Government costs can run into the billions, or even tens of billions, of dollars.

For the bail out, the Treasury and the Federal Reserve granted Wall Street between $3 trillion and $5 trillion. That's enough to pay off both the deficit and next year's entitlement costs.

Taxes supposedly pay for society's benefits, which get bigger and better as people get richer.

To read more

JJS: Enough class warfare. Now for the right wing’s turn. Enjoy the writer’s neutral tone.

Hold on to Your Wallet: The Cost of Corporate Welfare and Rent-Seeking
Cronyism -- the practice by which government officials provide preferential treatment (such as loans, subsidies, or regulatory preferences) to handpicked firms or industries -- takes many forms: It is Solyndra, the farm bill, subsidies to oil-and-gas corporations, banks and automobile companies, but also the protections granted to the sugar industry and other industries, tax credits to private companies, and much more.

Corporate welfare programs are “programs that provide payments or unique benefits and advantages to specific companies or industries.” They cost $98 billion in spending in fiscal 2012.

That cost, however, doesn’t include things like the higher price of goods and services that American consumers have to pay when the government grants special protection to special interests like it does with the sugar lobby.

Nor does it include the cost to our economy of the time, money, and energy that entrepreneurs and businesses spend asking politicians for those privileges, rent-seeking, as economists call it, instead of devising new ways to create value for customers.

A 10 percentage point increase in the share of students concentrating in law was associated with 0.78 percentage point slower annual growth in per capita GDP. In other words, economic growth was slower in countries where there seemed to be more rent-seeking.

This difference compounds over time. If, since 1980, per capita GDP had grown 0.78 percentage points faster than it actually did, then 2011 per capita production would have been $54,000 rather than $43,000. When governments dispense privileges, economic growth is diminished. It means that real people earn less money than they otherwise could.

This is serious and is just one added layer of evidence that we should end all special favors to private-sector companies.

To read more

JJS: While wasteful spending must be abolished, it won’t stay abolished as long as a deeper problem persists -- our failure to share our common wealth, our society’s surplus, which is the worth of Earth, or the spending by all members of society for land and resources. As long as the many must pay the few for merely owning or using land, then those paying will be at a disadvantage to those receiving. The retainers of "rents" will always constitute an elite class with more clout and make you pay for their privileges.

What can you do? You can adopt geonomics. You can (1) halt the wasteful spending, (2) cut the taxes on useful efforts, on earnings, sales, and buildings, (3) recover all the socially-generated value of land via taxes or fees or leases or dues, and (4) pay the lion’s share of the recovered trillions back to the populace as a Citizens Dividend, a la Alaska’s oil share. When everybody gets a fair share of the pie, then it won’t be available for a few to hog.

Getting a fair share may seem pie-in-the-sky but it has precedents. Already there are Social Security and Medicare for the elderly and conventional welfare for the disabled. Plus, citizens save money by using public schools and public roads whose costs are covered not by users alone but by the general fund.

A Citizens Dividend would expand the disbursement of public revenue to everyone and rather than come from taxes on our efforts would come from “rents” or from the spending we already do for locations.

If you can envision getting such a CD, perhaps you can help make it happen. You can do it locally, and every locality that has done anything even remotely similar has benefited. Top that!
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Old January 31st, 2013, 09:58 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Tyler Cornwall View Post
It's amazing how we've been split so much as citizens of this country into progressive or conservative. I mean really? Half of these forums it turns in to battles of calling each other and the other party stupid or ignorant or liars and a bunch of other stuff. The reason nothing's getting done is because of this divide in this country. We don't all realize that we're all in this together at the end of the day. There have been a lot of bad presidents I really don't like Obama but I can see he isn't this super radical socialist who wants to destroy this country. Bush Jr. Wasn't all bad either but he did a lot of stupid things.
As an Independent conservative, I don't give a rat's ass about Party affiliation. What I do care about is, is this president and this Congress working on behave of legal American citizens. The answer is a resounding "NO". Four years of this administration has brought us nothing but debt, and division. Numbers don't lie. This administration does! Obama put his face on TV and told us our economy was improving, it wasn't. Latest numbers tell us we are backsliding (Commerce dept.).
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Old January 31st, 2013, 10:24 AM   #20
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Oh no! The sky is falling! The sky is falling! LOL. The economy contracted 1/10 of 1%. Not good, but not the definition of another recession. What we need is infrastructure spending and jobs, now!
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