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Old September 10th, 2013, 10:42 PM   #91
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I know two staunch evangelicals who say that is impossible. They claim you can't behave morally if you aren't afraid of eternal damnation or some such thing. So you aren't really a nice guy, you just think you are.
Actually Staunch Evangelicals say you can live your life anyway you want.

The first doctrine of the Evangelical movement is THE DOCTRINE OF FREE WILL.

Now we Evangelicals (this is how we got our name) Warn of the enternal and earthly consequences of choices.

For example Adultry is a sin against God.. Plus we warn of the earthly consequences of Adultry.. STDs Divorce, becoming a victim of a crime of passion, etc...

But hey you can commit adultry, we just warn you of the road hazards of that path.
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Old September 10th, 2013, 10:53 PM   #92
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Actually Staunch Evangelicals say you can live your life anyway you want.

The first doctrine of the Evangelical movement is THE DOCTRINE OF FREE WILL.

Now we Evangelicals (this is how we got our name) Warn of the enternal and earthly consequences of choices.

For example Adultry is a sin against God.. Plus we warn of the earthly consequences of Adultry.. STDs Divorce, becoming a victim of a crime of passion, etc...

But hey you can commit adultry, we just warn you of the road hazards of that path.
ok, i have free will. i choose to interpret the bible as an old story past its use by date and i think the fundamental beliefs of christianity are complete fantasy.

but i dont commit adultery, i dont steal, i honour my parents, i tell the truth, i acknowledge my mistakes and take responsibility for them, i give my time to causes i believe in. i have had every opportunity to do the opposite, but i choose not to because i think it is morally wrong. when i am on my death bed i will be confident there is no afterlife of any sort, but smile to remember the wonders this life has given me. as an evangelical, do you think am i going to heaven or hell?
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Old September 10th, 2013, 11:39 PM   #93
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ok, i have free will. i choose to interpret the bible as an old story past its use by date and i think the fundamental beliefs of christianity are complete fantasy.

but i dont commit adultery, i dont steal, i honour my parents, i tell the truth, i acknowledge my mistakes and take responsibility for them, i give my time to causes i believe in. i have had every opportunity to do the opposite, but i choose not to because i think it is morally wrong. when i am on my death bed i will be confident there is no afterlife of any sort, but smile to remember the wonders this life has given me. as an evangelical, do you think am i going to heaven or hell?
That is your Free will Choice.

One if us is right the other is wrong.. Or at least more right or wrong We will someday find out...

You see I have no problem with anyone's worship

I think if there is prayer and a Wiccan is the one scheduled to lead the prayer. So be it...

or a Jew, or a Muslim, or a Hindi, or a Buddhist, or a pastafinearian, or an atheist..

I have just been told to as I go through life to Tell the news, I have no control over the outcome of those that hear the news, they will accept it, or reject it..
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Old September 11th, 2013, 05:20 AM   #94
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i have had friends say that i am christian. i point out that i am not, i dont go to church, i dont pray, i dont even believe the doctrine. they say that isnt the point; the way i live my life, what i do and how i act is consistent with a christian ethic. using the corollary argument, they also say that a lot of priests are not christian.
i would say you appear to be what I call a "cultural christian", your morality is derived (as you describe it) from christian precepts, while you reject the doctrine.

yeah, that can make you a nice guy, but God has higher hopes for you.
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Old September 11th, 2013, 05:35 AM   #95
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i would say you appear to be what I call a "cultural christian", your morality is derived (as you describe it) from christian precepts, while you reject the doctrine.

yeah, that can make you a nice guy, but God has higher hopes for you.
God has higher hopes for us? The born sinner, who without the help of Jesus, has no hope of salvation, lest we find favor with God?
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Old September 11th, 2013, 05:57 AM   #96
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This is a fun discussion.

It is repeated often that faith in Christ will open the gates of heaven. I will assert that what kind of faith is not specified. It may not be faith in his divinity. Perhaps faith in his example of living; if one lives with the love and compassion that Christ exhibited, then he can go to heaven. Or, perhaps, being what I call a 'philisophical Christian;' this is the person that counts Jesus as one of the wisest men ever born and follows his philosophy with no consideration of whether he was divine or not. Or perhaps the person who understands Christ to be divine and that all people are also divine.

We really just don't know. Even in the case of Christianity, multiple roads merge into one.
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Old September 11th, 2013, 06:07 AM   #97
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Not according to the fundamentalist Christians or even the ones following the doctrine of a specific denomination like Catholicism. it is their way or no way.
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Old September 11th, 2013, 06:24 AM   #98
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Not according to the fundamentalist Christians or even the ones following the doctrine of a specific denomination like Catholicism. it is their way or no way.
And they can't even agree on what is the 'right way.'

Faith is about what is right for the individual, as opposed to what is right. This message seems to be lost on certain church leaders. That said, I will also acknowledge that Christianity grew out of a belief system where the actions/disobedience of one (usually the king) could cause enormous suffering for all.
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Old September 11th, 2013, 07:35 AM   #99
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I know two staunch evangelicals who say that is impossible. They claim you can't behave morally if you aren't afraid of eternal damnation or some such thing. So you aren't really a nice guy, you just think you are.
This argument was used against universalism in the third, fourth and fifth centuries.

Today, universalism seems a curious offshoot of the visible Christian Church, but, it was the dominant view back then. Of the six major schools of christian thought and belief, only one believed in an eternal hell, and sadly, this school, this church, the Roman Church, used the power of the sword to become the dominant force.

How sad a faith it is, that people must be "encouraged" by the threat of eternal pain and suffering. How far, far away that faith is from the simple, universal truth of the Gospel.
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Old September 11th, 2013, 08:31 AM   #100
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God has higher hopes for us? The born sinner, who without the help of Jesus, has no hope of salvation, lest we find favor with God?
jeremiah 29:11
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