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Old September 9th, 2013, 12:18 AM   #61
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no.

definition of agnostic
someone who believes that not them, or anyone else, has any actual knowledge of god and believes the correct answer to the question "is there a god?" is "nobody knows".

that IS commiting to an opinion. it is also specifically about ones religious belief. someone who is a swinging voter and cant say for sure which party they support is "unwilling to commit to an opinion" but is not agnostic.
One that has not come to an opinion.. if there is or is not a God.

as stated in the Webster's defiintion which I cut and pasted.

there are Political and Scientific agnostics as well

for example those that don't accept the MMGW hoax, are called deniers, (actually are MMGW agnostics)

There are agnostics on to the fact that Syrian government used gas.. they would be political Agnostics.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 07:38 AM   #62
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That is absurd. Only if sin is not punished will evil triumph. It is His right to punish as He sees fit. Complain to Him. Maybe He will enlighten you. Faith is a gift, knock and you will receive.

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him. MT 7: 7-11 RSV
John 17:2 - "Thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." The plain truth, the simple truth, God gave Christ power over all flesh, and he shall give eternal life to as many as God gave him. How many? All flesh.

John 12:32 - "I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to me."

Universal salvation was universally accepted by the followers of Christ during the first three centuries after his death.

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Hippolytus (A.D. 220), in "Philosophumena" or "Refutation of Heresy" identifies and comments on thirty-two heresies, but Universal Salvation is not named among them. Whilst Clement of Alexandria, and Origen - Universalist fathers then living - were everywhere regarded as the great teachers of the Church, and their Universalist view of man's future destiny was generally prevalent, even according to Augustine, Jerome and others - who, later, were to preach something vastly different, namely an eternal punishment based on religious belief of a concept....

Epiphanius, bishop of Constantia in Cyprus (A.D. 367) ... bitterly opposed Origen on many points but never once does he so much as hint that [Origen's] views of Universal Salvation were objectionable to himself, or to the Church. In Epiphanius' book against heresies, "The Panarion," this "hammer of heretics" names eighty heresies but Universal Salvation is not among them.

It is a plain fact that Universal Salvation was accepted as part of original Christ-teaching, because not one of those who wrote against the heresies of their times ever named Universal Salvation as a heresy. Hippolytus numbers thirty-two heresies as currently existing; Epiphanius encapsulates his Panarion in his "Anacephalaeosis" or "Recapitulation", but not one of those early inquisitors whose most fervent endeavour was to identify prevailing Christian heresies includes Universal Salvation in his condemnations – not one.
Sometimes I note that the Federal Reserve has, imo, pulled off the biggest crime the world ever has seen. Yes, the secular world, but the perversion of the Gospel as preached by Christ is the biggest crime of the last 1,700 years.

The perversion began with the marriage of the Roman Church and the Roman Empire, and has continued since. The perversion of the Gospel seduces believers by offering them membership in an exclusive club. But the Gospel offers universal salvation.

Once seen, the universal promise of the Gospel shines brightly, and can be found running through the NT and the OT.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 07:47 AM   #63
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Evil entered when Lucifer and his followers set themselves up as god. And were rather rudely shown the door. Free will at work. You will note that in the creation account the angels are not mentioned. The creation account was of the world we know, the visible, that is what we are told of. Not the creation of the unseen, the angels as an example.
"Evil" always existed, always was part of God's will.

Think about it. If that's not true, what are we to make of the omnipotence of God? What of God's wisdom?

What manner of God creates a Paradise and a pair of created beings to inhabit it, then evicts them, without the eviction being a part of God's intentions?

The Fall was a part of God's intentions. The Fall and all that precipitated from it are a school in which we are taught lessons that can be learned only through a spirit dwelling in a material body.

Universalism makes sense of "The Fall." All other doctrines diminish the Creator and the will of the Creator.

In the biblical story, who seeks to diminish the Creator and the will of the Creator?

That's right....
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Old September 9th, 2013, 08:00 AM   #64
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Absolutely my opposition is to the concept of eternal hell, a concept that hands victory to darkness.
Darkness gets thrown into hell, too, so I don't see as how that is any victory for darkness.

Besides, restating your initial statement was not an answer to the clarification which I asked from you. I asked if you are just opposed to the word "eternal" being associated with hell. The Bible speaks of hell long before the church was married to government. Do you deny that?
I gave you my answer above.

Darkness, Satan, evil, I'm using synonymously.

The victory announced by the Gospel is diminished almost to the point of inconsequence if the vast majority of God's created children spend eternity in conscious suffering and torment.

Hell is the painful process of learning vital lessons. It's not eternal, and the length of any being's stay in hell is wholly determined by the being's choices.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 08:47 AM   #65
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Mrs. RNG's brother the Catholic says good works are the only way into heaven. I'm not sure what the Jehovah's Witnesses say.
No, being able to 'pay' for one's bad works is the only way to heaven.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 09:03 PM   #66
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Hell is the painful process of learning vital lessons.
I don't suppose you have any Scripture to support that notion, so you? Jesus gave an account of two people dying, with one of them waking up on hell. Hell's description there hardly seemed like a process of learning a lesson. Was the other person who died in that passage also experiencing a process regarding some sort of lesson? In the Bible, both judgment and reward are spoken of as eternal. You seem willing to view the reward as eternal, but not the judgment, even though the same "time-frame" word is used for each. That is hardly consistent.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 09:15 PM   #67
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John 17:2 - "Thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." The plain truth, the simple truth, God gave Christ power over all flesh, and he shall give eternal life to as many as God gave him. How many? All flesh.
The power over all flesh is the power of BOTH judgment and reward. A certain number of those will be given eternal life. The verse does not specifically say that ALL flesh will be given the eternal life. You are reading that into the verse in spite of multiple other verses which show that some will be condemned.

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John 12:32 - "I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to me."
But not all men respond to the call.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 09:47 PM   #68
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No, being able to 'pay' for one's bad works is the only way to heaven.
but that would make Christianity a Faith of works

"Not by works lest anyone would boast"
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Old September 9th, 2013, 10:36 PM   #69
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I don't suppose you have any Scripture to support that notion, so you? Jesus gave an account of two people dying, with one of them waking up on hell. Hell's description there hardly seemed like a process of learning a lesson. Was the other person who died in that passage also experiencing a process regarding some sort of lesson? In the Bible, both judgment and reward are spoken of as eternal. You seem willing to view the reward as eternal, but not the judgment, even though the same "time-frame" word is used for each. That is hardly consistent.
OK, let's go round on this one more time, Bookworm.

The reward is until the end of the age, as far as I can gather from the Hebrew and Greek words first translated as "eternal" by Jerome, an interpretation that has carried forward to this day.

The judgement likewise is until the end of the age.

The length of the age cannot be determined, given what we can garner from the Bible. However, this is plain:

Quote:
"As, by the offense of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one, the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life...

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
For a being to suffer eternally in hell, that being must have eternal life.

I don't believe in a god who resurrects all to eternal life so that most can suffer eternally in hell. You do. We all make our choices.

However, here's a support for the premise I mentioned.

Mark 9:47-50

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And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
The Bible is silent on how eternity is spent. I believe it's both arrogant and ignorant to believe that we die, and all our questions are answered, the finite fully comprehending the infinite.

God uses death and hell to accomplish his purposes in this age. His purpose is to bring all his children home. Once that's accomplished, death and hell as we know it will no longer serve God's purposes. Thus, the second death.

"Hell" isn't "on the other side." It isn't eternal.

The "threat" of experiencing eternal hell is an integral doctrine of the church-state that emerged in the fourth century AD. Its object is simple: control of the people. The unbiblical doctrine of eternal hell diminished the total, universal victory of the Gospel, a victory Paul proclaims here.

Romans 5:19-21

Quote:
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound, that, as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Given that we know all have sinned, we may, in both cases, know that "many" means "all." One more universalist scripture, and I'll let it go for now.

1 Tim. 2:1-6

Quote:
I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and for all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all....

Last edited by imaginethat; September 9th, 2013 at 10:38 PM.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 10:40 PM   #70
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The power over all flesh is the power of BOTH judgment and reward. A certain number of those will be given eternal life. The verse does not specifically say that ALL flesh will be given the eternal life. You are reading that into the verse in spite of multiple other verses which show that some will be condemned.

But not all men respond to the call.
Substantiate that, please.

The Bible is filled with universalist promises. Once seen, they're impossible to ignore.

No disagreement existed over universal salvation in the three centuries following the death of Christ. Anyone can uncover this historical fact. However, universal salvation was of no use to a church-state.

For almost 1,700 years, the lie of eternal hell and a "special few" has been taught and accepted, and used to control the masses.

Last edited by imaginethat; September 9th, 2013 at 10:44 PM.
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