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Old December 15th, 2013, 04:30 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by excalibur View Post
Please do not patronize me.

And please do not spread lies. Most of what you think you know on this topic you do not know.

As for the Gospel applying "universally", I have zero idea what you mean by that. The only way to the Father is through Me, that is what Christ said. But a Saint has said that the Lord told her in a vision that every man gets a last chance at the hour of death to accept Him (not a required tenet of the Faith I should add - but accepted). Such is His Mercy. Denying His Divinity won't cut it. If today you hear His voice, harden not your hearts.

Peace.
Please show us why ANYTHING in the Bible should be accepted as fact....THEN we can move on to debating what the Bible means.
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Old December 15th, 2013, 05:12 AM   #82
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Please show us why ANYTHING in the Bible should be accepted as fact....THEN we can move on to debating what the Bible means.
If I may intrude. There is substantial archeological evidence of locations and events in the Bible, particularly the Old Testament. Additionally, there are historical accounts from other sources that confirm certain events. So, clearly there is a lot in the Bible that can be demonstrated to be fact. Oddly, there is absolutely NO evidence to support the story of the Egyptian Captivity. It doesn't seem to have happened from the Egyptian records of the time.

I think what has been going on in this thread is interesting. The Declaration of Independence has been promoted to the countries Founding document (although I thought that would have been the Article of Confederation). The Constitution is now a religiously inspired document that contains no reference to God because that would be redundant. I'm not sure why it would be redundant but it is an easy excuse to dismiss the fact that God isn't mentioned in the Constitution.

Of course, God isn't mentioned in the Declaration either. What is used is a set of very general euphemisms that anyone could see as speaking to their beliefs. It uses Creator not as in "the Creator" but as in "their Creator" making it possible for all beliefs to bring their own idea of their Creator to the interpretation of the phrase. The mention of a "Supreme Judge" is likewise general and open to each individual interpretation. "Divine Providence" is even more open to interpretation than the others. The interesting thing to me is that all of these terms could be embraced by almost any religion or philosophy as being relevant to themselves.

But some here want to claim that these references prove this is a Christian nation. And that just isn't the case. The careful choice of words by the Founders suggests that they intended to create quite different. They used language that would speak to each individual without embracing any specific doctrine.

So, why do some claim this is evidence of this being a Christian nation? My belief is that this is a reflection of their own belief system. If you are a Christian (or claim to be) your first thought would be that "Creator" meant God...also "Supreme Judge". "Divine Providence" would be some sort of God's will thing (speaking as a severely lapsed Catholic). But, consider if you were, say, Muslim. Now you see this in terms of Islam and Allah. The wording was intentionally vague so as to avoid the appearance of creating a country that promoted any religion...a nation where all faiths would be treated equally (at least in theory).

What is confusing the right here is that they find all these quotes from the Founders with very specific Christian references in them. To them that means that they were Christians and MUST have meant to establish a Christian country. I see it differently. As individuals the Founders appear to have been men of faith (at least those quoted). But, in creating the new country they recognized that it would be wrong to bring their particular religious philosophy to their creation. They wisely chose to go the secular route and guarantee that everyone could believe essentially as they wished.

In todays environment of intolerance for differing ideas, when everything is black and white, right or wrong, this sort of approach would never occur to some folks...particularly on the right. The idea that one could hold personal beliefs separate (and perhaps at odds with) from their beliefs about what is best for the country (or the creation of a country) seems to be incomprehensible to most on the right. So, they believe that if the Founders were Christians they must have intended to create a Christian country. They seek evidence that the Founders were Christians and proclaim that as proof this is a Christian nation. They simply can't see beyond their preconceptions. Oh yeah, and they are profoundly arrogant.
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Old December 15th, 2013, 05:22 AM   #83
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Doesn't it really boil down to seperation of church and state? We have that in this country. It just so happens that most of us our Christians and are culture is largely based on that.
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Old December 15th, 2013, 05:35 AM   #84
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Please show us why ANYTHING in the Bible should be accepted as fact....THEN we can move on to debating what the Bible means.
There is a passage in the Bible that speaks of a talking ass. I think we see evidence of that every day - especially on this thread.
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Old December 15th, 2013, 05:36 AM   #85
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Settle down Tizzy. You do realize that people like myself seldom care what people like you are trying to think, right?
Name calling while trying to infer that I am the child kind of cancels out your argument. Its completely counter productive to your cause Sweetie.
I think it would be best if you called him "Tristan."
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Old December 15th, 2013, 05:51 AM   #86
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I think it would be best if you called him "Tristan."
I think it would be nice if I could post without being told "fuck you" and being called an "asshole" repeatedly. He needs to grow up.

Tristan
"fuck you and your "Trissy" bullshit - I'm a Christian - why would I fear a creche? "

"asshole to the zenith that you are"

I have to laugh. This is the same guy who told me that he has class and doesn't even think of words to call others, but seems to spend a good amount of time using 2nd grade insults. Come on, you have to laugh at the sheer irony.

"I don't even think of things I can call you.

THAT'S class.
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Last edited by pana8; December 15th, 2013 at 06:03 AM.
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Old December 15th, 2013, 06:43 AM   #87
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Doesn't it really boil down to seperation of church and state? We have that in this country. It just so happens that most of us our Christians and are culture is largely based on that.
And a nativity scene does nothing to violate this separation. Neither does praying in school, or posting the Ten Commandments outside a courthouse, or a Bible in an abortion clinic. None of these things forces one to become a Christian nor do they demand the disrespect being flung like crap by atheist a-holes who act as if someone saying "Jesus loves you" is violating their state rights.

What a bunch of crybabies!
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Old December 15th, 2013, 07:57 AM   #88
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I don't care if it rains or freezes, as long as I've got my tiny ceramic Jewish family...
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Old December 15th, 2013, 08:10 AM   #89
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And a nativity scene does nothing to violate this separation. Neither does praying in school, or posting the Ten Commandments outside a courthouse, or a Bible in an abortion clinic. None of these things forces one to become a Christian nor do they demand the disrespect being flung like crap by atheist a-holes who act as if someone saying "Jesus loves you" is violating their state rights.

What a bunch of crybabies!
nobody has ever told anybody they can't pray in school. they usually aren't allowed to make a spectacle and circus out of it - but they can't stop anybody from praying.

judges are supposed to be following the law of the land, not the law of the Bible. The Ten Commandments should not be posted outside a courthouse as if THAT were the book being used to adjudicate cases.

never heard that a Bible isn't allowed in an abortion clinic. have a link?
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Old December 15th, 2013, 08:27 AM   #90
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all said it response to YOUR name-calling and nasty comments, you lying, pompous, arrogant, self-important sack of horse shit and cow spit

does that make my feelings towards you clear enough?
You're a poopy-head.
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