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Old February 5th, 2017, 11:19 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by excalibur View Post
The fact is that many Mohammedans support imposition of sharia, and also support violence to achieve those means. Ignoring the history of Mohammedanism will get many in the West killed. Unless they convert; perhaps locke23 is a convert.

It is also part of Mohammedanism that lying in the furtherance of its goals is highly acceptable.


Define "many". Do you have a number? A percentage? What is the source of your claim?

Also what history should we be paying attention to? How recent is it? There was a point in history where Christianity would use violence to push their religion. Is THAT history something we should take into account while judging the actions of ALL Christians?

As an atheist people tell me I can't understand Christianity without being a Christian yet here you are telling what is acceptable to Muslims, why should we take your word for it?
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Old February 5th, 2017, 11:49 AM   #82
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I'll agree up to the point of whether Canada or any nation has an obligation to accept all immigrant applicants. There are limits...although our world would not have a growing refugee crisis except that it is being exacerbated by anthropogenic climate change, wars, regime change operations and what looks like deliberate creation of failed states by the American Empire...as failed states devolve into anarchy and are unable to oppose political and economic policies being imposed in their regions. I would cite Libya, Somalia, Syria, Yemen, Sudan and Ukraine as examples where the failed states just happen to benefit US&allied foreign policy.


It's funny that the "Green Menace" didn't start to rise until the "Red Menace" was dispatched!

Until 9-11, rightwingers in all western nations targeted Muslims by their ethnicities/not collectively as members of a movement that is trying to end western supremacy and impose their empire.
The Muslim majority nations that are allies of the US (starting with Saudi Arabia) are the major reason why so many Muslims started forming revolutionary movements out of their religion. When I was young, the radicals in the Muslim World, were Soviet-influenced Marxist intellectuals, and the US worked in collaboration with SA, Pakistan and others to create Mujaheddin movements to suppress leftwing radicals at home, and fight Soviet-sponsored rulers abroad (like Algeria and Afghanistan)....what could go wrong?

*In Southern Ontario, where I did most of my growing up, the disparaging term 'Paki' was applied to the first South Asian immigrants we were seeing moving in...and no one gave a crap whether they were Muslim, Hindu, Christian or Buddhist...it was just based on colour, language and customs. That's why any anti-Muslim talkers today who say "I'm not against Muslims, just Islam" are just full of shit!



There is an entire cottage industry of conservatives and liberal warhawks (like Bill Maher) who take a superficial look at a problem...like which religion do they belong to, and run with it...never looking under the surface at the underlying causes that would motivate young Muslims in oppressed, desperately poor nations, to look for revenge against the Empire...whether by joining an Islamic militia or carrying out a terrorist attack.

Now, that homegrown terrorism is becoming a large and growing problem...like the recent murders in a Quebec City mosque, it should be plainly obvious that young, nihilistic loners in the west, are fodder for being recruited by extreme racist and nationalist movements right here!
So, unless someone is warm to the concept of Christian fascism or some formulation of atheist-humanist fascism (since a lot of this shit is coming from self-proclaimed atheists), then average citizens over here should be more concerned about the growing fascist and terrorist threat being spawned out of extreme nationalism and calls for patriotism.
Lol please explain why creating failed states would be in the interest of US foreign policy.

There is not "American Empire" you fucking commie.

Is there an argument hidden away somewhere in this giant block of nothing?

Atheist-humanist fascism? Geez there's so many people these days who think they can just make up terms. Humanist-fascist is basically an oxymoron. Also, you have a religious stance, a moral stance and a political stance all in one school of thought. Each of these things must be subsets of the other, connected to a group or administration. They cannot all be thrown together. Not to mention the fact almost no one on this planet would or could have such views. Well, unless they're either insane or have an IQ below 50.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 11:50 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by excalibur View Post
The fact is that many Mohammedans support imposition of sharia, and also support violence to achieve those means. Ignoring the history of Mohammedanism will get many in the West killed. Unless they convert; perhaps locke23 is a convert.

It is also part of Mohammedanism that lying in the furtherance of its goals is highly acceptable.


I guess your fine with ignoring the Crusades and the crimes beyond magnitude committed by competing European empires as they sailed out, conquered, plundered and enslaved those living in foreign lands even after forced conversions! All done under the name of the Christian God as Catholic imperialists were given a carte blanche to do whatever they liked in new heathen lands under the Pope's Doctrine of Discovery...which as never been revoked as a matter of fact, and was still front and center as the supposedly liberal new pope canonized a faithful butcher and enslaver for the faith - Junipero Serra a year or so ago.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 11:59 AM   #84
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There is no right of immigration to a sovereign country. Going to another country is a privilege granted by a country. Once accepted by a sovereign country, then there are rights.
You seem to forget there's this thing called International Law. The rights of people do not begin to exist once they've entered a country, nor is it entirely determined by the host country. By the order of the UN, ICJ and ICC, migrants must always have basic human rights afforded to them.

But getting past technicalities, this discussion is obviously about what's morally the thing to do. I think it should obvious to anyone and everyone that the possibility of coming to the US from some of the worst places on the planet to find a new, better life, is the archetype of the American Dream.

99% of these immigrants have done nothing wrong and will continue to do nothing wrong. By banning them entering the US and also promoting this kind of behaviour to the rest of the world, we have here a repeat of the tragedy that was how in the 1930s no countries would take Jewish and Slavic refugees fleeing the oppression of Nazi Germany. And yes, these immigrants may as well be called refugees, because they're coming from failed states and war zones.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 12:03 PM   #85
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I guess your fine with ignoring the Crusades and the crimes beyond magnitude committed by competing European empires as they sailed out, conquered, plundered and enslaved those living in foreign lands even after forced conversions! All done under the name of the Christian God as Catholic imperialists were given a carte blanche to do whatever they liked in new heathen lands under the Pope's Doctrine of Discovery...which as never been revoked as a matter of fact, and was still front and center as the supposedly liberal new pope canonized a faithful butcher and enslaver for the faith - Junipero Serra a year or so ago.
Pssst, let ya in on a secret. This is the year 2016. Can you come up with anything current?
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Old February 5th, 2017, 12:03 PM   #86
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Lol please explain why creating failed states would be in the interest of US foreign policy.
Failed states keep arms merchants in business. And they are unable to act on the international stage against foreign domination.

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There is not "American Empire" you fucking commie.
Says someone who's job depends on playing a small role on behalf of the empire!

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Is there an argument hidden away somewhere in this giant block of nothing?
Follow the money! Spare me your liberal patronage about the "good Muslims" who follow the rules of capitalism here and in their own homelands! The fucktards who run US-allied governments are the reason why there are Islamic radicals and insurgencies to start with!

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Atheist-humanist fascism? Geez there's so many people these days who think they can just make up terms. Humanist-fascist is basically an oxymoron. Also, you have a religious stance, a moral stance and a political stance all in one school of thought. Each of these things must be subsets of the other, connected to a group or administration. They cannot all be thrown together. Not to mention the fact almost no one on this planet would or could have such views. Well, unless they're either insane or have an IQ below 50.
No, your IQ is below 50 since you just swallow bullshit without 2nd thought! The new atheist writers and speakers like Bill Maher, Sam Harris, or those trying to retread Christopher Hitchens are perfect examples of purveyors of atheism in support of an empire, and excuse most everything the military does today as 'humanitarian interventions.'
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Old February 5th, 2017, 12:05 PM   #87
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Pssst, let ya in on a secret. This is the year 2016. Can you come up with anything current?
How about Quebec City or the Yemen bombing campaign we're talking about today?
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Old February 5th, 2017, 12:07 PM   #88
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You just advocated for removing the sovereignty of nations. Take a look at your Canadian immigration laws. Get back with me on that.

You are correct, there are a vast majority of Islamic people who have not participated in violence. But, lets be real, if you look at the teachings of Islam, they are not following it if they are willing to live in peace with "non-believers". At the same time, can you show me anywhere in the teachings of Christ that Christ commands his followers to go out an kill those who are not Christian? No, you cant. Here is some fun reading for you

The Quran's Verses of Violence
No I didn't. Sovereignty is not decided by who gets to go to and fro a country. Immigration has been around for forever and I've yet to hear of a country that ceased to exist simply b/c of that one thing. Sovereignty is decided by clearly designated territory, unique culture, laws and government, and a bazillion other things that have little to nothing to do with immigration.

You're responding to me as if I said we shouldn't have borders and just let anyone in. That is not what I am advocating. What I am advocating is not barring people from entering simply because of their religion, where they live, or any other trait that isn't clear criminal behaviour.

So? Did you not just agree with me that 99.99% of Muslims are peaceful people? Therefore, if there's no evidence to suggest they're a violent group of people, then does it matter what their holy books supposedly promote according to you? No, it doesn't.

Also, by that same logic, why don't we ban Christians because of all the evils in the Bible, or Jews, or Hindus, or Atheists, or Communists, or Anarchists, or Republicans????
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Old February 5th, 2017, 12:07 PM   #89
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How about Quebec City or the Yemen bombing campaign we're talking about today?
That is much better! What about it? But, from your earlier post what I suspected has came to light. Your a regressive leftist. I thought so when you immediately followed the script with the crusades.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 12:14 PM   #90
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You seem to forget there's this thing called International Law. The rights of people do not begin to exist once they've entered a country, nor is it entirely determined by the host country. By the order of the UN, ICJ and ICC, migrants must always have basic human rights afforded to them.

But getting past technicalities, this discussion is obviously about what's morally the thing to do. I think it should obvious to anyone and everyone that the possibility of coming to the US from some of the worst places on the planet to find a new, better life, is the archetype of the American Dream.

99% of these immigrants have done nothing wrong and will continue to do nothing wrong. By banning them entering the US and also promoting this kind of behaviour to the rest of the world, we have here a repeat of the tragedy that was how in the 1930s no countries would take Jewish and Slavic refugees fleeing the oppression of Nazi Germany. And yes, these immigrants may as well be called refugees, because they're coming from failed states and war zones.
Sovereign countries make their laws regarding who can enter it not. There is no external organization that can make any law that affects US domestic policy and no treaty is valid between the US and any other country or organization that violates the US Constitution and immigration is a constitutionally granted plenary power of Congress and Congress has via legislation granted the President plenary power over immigration regarding national security.
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