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Old March 12th, 2017, 02:34 PM   #51
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A little projection here from the gangster capitalist who assumes everyone else is as sick and twisted as he is!

And fwiw any civilization that exceeds resource limits and destroys the environment is a doomed civilization. Guess what kind of civilization modern industrial capitalism is?
Contrary to what coke wants to believe, the Native Americans were the first conservationists, they protected the land and wild life and used both wisely.
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Old March 12th, 2017, 06:37 PM   #52
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Uh, sorry but Indians weren't the first Americans they just happened to be here when the "Real First Americans" landed at Plymouth Rock. They were just a bunch of tribal savages, fighting among themselves, while living in animal skin tents, and they would probably still be living in tents if it wasn't for the real first Americans.
I got news for you
the Indians was not american befor the white man came. and took there land over. and even changed the land belonging to them to America.
and another thing. it was the Indians that saved many lives of the white man that would not
have survived the winter. and all the white man gave them in return
is wars white man agenst white man white man agensg Indians Indians
agenst Indians. I'm not Indian I'm irish but I can not stand
unfairness where is don't belong
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Old March 12th, 2017, 07:52 PM   #53
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Even here, you know nothing of the history of this continent before the arrival of Europeans. In the case of the America's interior, life was completely disrupted by the introduction of a new technology...not guns, horses! First, we have to examine how early on in the history of Eurasia, how culture changed...or was upended by raiders on horseback. Beginning about 4000 years ago, raiding parties start pouring out of Central Asia, moving west, east and south, raiding and plundering the first "civilizations" or permanently settled communities. To defend themselves, the citydwellers adopted many if not most of the warfaring and male-centered cultural values of the raiders...glorifying killing and dying in battle as even if repelled, the cult of the warrior and his stamp was left permanently, and changed culture, religion and ways of life permanently. Well, same thing happened on this side of the world as settlements had to deal with the brand new phenomena of raiders on horseback.

Until the Apache's and Comanches started learning how to ride and manage horses from the Spanish conquistadors, population densities among the buffalo hunters in the interior were never great enough to make wars or battles necessary....primarily because they had to hunt on foot...spending long days running down prey until exhaustion and overheating if there were no convenient "buffalo jumps" to force a group of bison over a cliff and provide enough food and useable materials for an entire season.

The Comanches were the tribes that applied the horse to greatest effect- to expand their territory and forcing out others in most of the interior...even preventing the Spanish from moving north. For reasons still not fully understood, the Comanches started declining in numbers and dying out even before the Americans started moving beyond the Mississippi. The cause of the end of the Comanches is still not fully understood, although it is known that they were greatly devastated by new diseases and had many enemies on all sides...who were also fighting and hunting on horseback.

So, after the demise of the Comanches, the Plains were fought over by competing tribes, with one of the dominant groups-the Blackfoot tribes being completely forced off the plains into the northwest because of their refusal to adopt the horse and use horses for hunting.

Long story short, taking a snapshot of what was happening when the Americans were moving into the plains in greater number and writing about them and how they lived, tells us nothing about life before the conquistadors arrived.
The question is "dominion". I'm fully aware of the history. The dominion of land has changed hands many times in history. Currently, the dominion over that land falls into the hands of the Federal government. But, don't try to run that, the natives were ecological, or, did not believe in ownership of land passed me because, history tells a different story.
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Old March 12th, 2017, 07:54 PM   #54
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Contrary to what coke wants to believe, the Native Americans were the first conservationists, they protected the land and wild life and used both wisely.
What a load of crap!!
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Old March 12th, 2017, 07:55 PM   #55
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Contrary to what coke wants to believe, the Native Americans were the first conservationists, they protected the land and wild life and used both wisely.
Yeah, you obviously got your history from dances with wolves. The Native Americans were not all spiritual do gooders with love of the earth etc. etc. Does not mean they were terrible either, just means you want to ignore reality.

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We are conditioned to think of Native Americans as good stewards of Nature, taking only whhttp://defendingthetruth.com/current-events/59839-vets-should-stand-our-first-americans-6.htmlat was essential for their well-being, yet it is not hard to find first-hand accounts of buffalo hunting which paint a different picture. No one would argue the senseless slaughter and waste of these magnificent animals at the hands of the Europeans, however, the loss of the buffalo also rests on the shoulders of the Indian.

“If the chase has been a successful one, the remains of partially dressed buffalos are left; but if not, they [Indians] return, and the carcass is cleaned and meat taken to camp”.

While one might wonder at his qualifications to make such a statement, Thomas Thorpe wrote that, “No part of North America was originally unoccupied by the buffalo”, and took note of the commonality of the Indians wasting a degree of the meat after a hunt. “The Indian gluts himself with marrow and fatness…he spends days and nights in wasteful extravagance, trusting to the abundance of nature to take care of the future.”

“You may say to them that the Indians do not eat all the game they take,–that it is not supposed they eat more than four-fifths of the deer they kill. The skins are of great value to them, and having secured these, the bodies are left for the wolves to devour, and it is much the same with the buffalo; they are hunted for their tongues, and skins, of which they manufacture robes, and sell them to the fur traders. The tongues are esteemed a great luxury. If I should tell you how many thousands of these robes are made and sold in a year by the Osages, and other more distant tribes, you would be astonished that there were any buffaloes to be found within hundreds of miles. Some of their most skillful hunters will kill nearly a hundred deer in five or six weeks. If they do not become civilized before many years, the game will become so scarce that they must waste away in the wilderness, and perish from want”.

Adair stated in 1775, “The buffalo herds are now becoming scarce. The thoughtless and wasteful Indians used to kill great numbers of them, only for their tongue and marrow bones, leaving the rest of the carcases to the wild beasts”.

Josiah Greg noted in 1835 that travelers and hunters wreaked havoc on the buffalo but that the Indians often killed them merely for their skins and tongues. Romans had described the wanton destruction of the buffalo by those who took, “his tongue only” some 60 years prior [1776].

“Still, vast as these herds are, their numbers are much less than in earlier times, and they are diminishing with fearful rapidity…it would be well to attach the most stringent penalties against the barbarous practice of killing buffalo merely for the sport, or perhaps for the tongues alone. Thousands are killed every year in this way. After all, however, it is perhaps the Indian himself who commits the mischief most wantonly”.

Joel Allen studied the destruction of the buffalo with astonishing results, particularly regarding the Indians’ part in decimating the herds through the sale of buffalo robes. For the most part the hides were the only part of the animal that was harvested in those endeavors. His figures were taken from such notable sources as a partner in the American Fur Company and a railroad agent’s reports on the transportation of the robes and given the average waste of some three to five animals for every robe produced he arrived at the figure of 1,800,000 animals killed just by one group of Indians during a three or four month period annually. That does not include the robes kept for their own use.

For doubters of the figure, let us consider the number of such robes that were received at only a few posts on the Upper Missouri during a season. Ft. Benton – 36,000 robes; Ft. Union 30,000; Ft. Clark and Ft. Berthoud about 10,000 each; Ft. Pierre 19,000; bringing the total for the year to about 75,000, “which he informed me was about the annual average at that period”. The number of buffalo products he quoted that were enumerated by the auditors of the Kansas Pacific and other railways which hauled them was mindboggling for the same year, but it cannot be determined how much of them white hunters or Indians were responsible for. It might be noted that at the time this research was gathered and these killings took place [1871-2], herds had already dwindled to a mere fraction of what they’d been a century before and were completely nonexistent in some states.

Caitlin described in detail a one-day Sioux hunt in 1833 at the mouth of the Teton, when some 600 Sioux came into the settlement of the Fur Company at sunset with “fourteen hundred fresh buffalo tongues”, which they exchanged for a few gallons of whiskey. He said not one skin, nor one pound of flesh was saved from the slaughtered buffalo, everything save the tongues left to rot.

After describing the methods used by Native Americans to hunt deer and elk, John Hunter wrote, “The Indians seldom eat the flesh of either of these animals, while that of the buffalo can be obtained; it is, nevertheless, excellent in its season, particularly that of the deer”. He said further that while the Indian had once venerated the beaver, upon discovering the value the whites attached to the skins, they, “hunt it with an avidity and industry that threaten in the course of a few years to eradicate them from their hunting grounds”.

Alaska natives also hunted for the hides alone. Treasury agents noted in 1898 seeing bales of hides waiting to be shipped and upon inquiring what was done with the meat were told that the deer were shot only for the hides. “White men go out and kill the animals for fun…The natives kill them, because they can get a drink of whisky, valued at 25 cents, for every skin secured”.

There are accounts to the contrary, so perhaps the wastefulness varied between tribes, or, perhaps Ernest Seton was correct in saying, “Many of the Indians armed with rifles have learned to emulate the white man, and slaughter game for the love of slaughter, without reference to the future. Such waste was condemned by the old-time Indians, as an abuse of the gifts of God, and which would surely bring its punishment”.
SOURCES: Batty, Joseph H. “How to Hunt and Trap: Containing Full Instructions for Hunting the Buffalo, Elk, Moose, Deer, Antelope, Bear, Fox, Grouse, Quail, Geese, Ducks, Woodcock, Snipe, Etc., Etc.” 1878. NY.
U.S. Dept. of the Treasury. “Seal and Salmon Fisheries and General Resources of Alaska. 1898. Washington.
Thorpe, Thomas Bangs. “The Mysteries of the Backwoods, Or, Sketches of the Southwest”. 1846. Philadelphia.
Tuttle, Sarah. “Letters on the Chickasaw and Osage Missions”. 1833. Boston.
Greg, Josiah. “Commerce of the Prairies”. 1851. Philadelphia.
Romans. “Natural History of Florida”.
Baird, Professor. Pat. Office Rep., Agriculture, 1851-52, Part 2. P. 125.
Schoolcraft’s History, Condition, and Prospects of the Indian Tribes of the United States. Vol. IV, p. 94.
Allen, Joel Asaph. “History of the American Bison”. 1877. Washington.
“The Gentleman’s Magazine”. Aug. 1885.
Hunter, John Dunn. “Memoirs of a Captivity Among the Indians of North America, from Childhood to the Age of Nineteen.” 1823. London.

Quote:
The average mature bison weighed some 700-800 pounds and yielded 225-400 pounds of meat, and communal hunts resulting in the deaths of dozens or hundreds of animals (30, 60, 100, and even 600, 800, and 1000 were reported killed) produced fantastic quantities of meat: 50 cows, for example, yielded 11,000-20,000 pounds of usable meat. Many European observers were struck by gourmandizing as well as by what struck them as subsequent "profligacy" or "indolence." At times, Indians used everything. But on occasions they did not, and the observers remarked upon "putrified carcasses," animals left untouched, or Indians who took only "the best parts of the meat." Sometimes Indians were said to kill "whole herds" only for the fat-filled tongues.
Buffalo Tales: The Near-Extermination of the American Bison, Native Americans and the Land, Nature Transformed, TeacherServe, National Humanities Center

Its called an inconvenient truth
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Old March 12th, 2017, 09:57 PM   #56
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The question is "dominion". I'm fully aware of the history. The dominion of land has changed hands many times in history. Currently, the dominion over that land falls into the hands of the Federal government. But, don't try to run that, the natives were ecological, or, did not believe in ownership of land passed me because, history tells a different story.
Right wing white man's history is alternative history. I have lived and worked with Sioux, Arapaho and Navajo and have close Cherokee friends, I know a little more than the white history books teach.
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Old March 12th, 2017, 09:59 PM   #57
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What a load of crap!!
The load of crap is you!!!
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Old March 13th, 2017, 01:11 AM   #58
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Yeah, you obviously got your history from dances with wolves. The Native Americans were not all spiritual do gooders with love of the earth etc. etc. Does not mean they were terrible either, just means you want to ignore reality.



SOURCES: Batty, Joseph H. “How to Hunt and Trap: Containing Full Instructions for Hunting the Buffalo, Elk, Moose, Deer, Antelope, Bear, Fox, Grouse, Quail, Geese, Ducks, Woodcock, Snipe, Etc., Etc.” 1878. NY.
U.S. Dept. of the Treasury. “Seal and Salmon Fisheries and General Resources of Alaska. 1898. Washington.
Thorpe, Thomas Bangs. “The Mysteries of the Backwoods, Or, Sketches of the Southwest”. 1846. Philadelphia.
Tuttle, Sarah. “Letters on the Chickasaw and Osage Missions”. 1833. Boston.
Greg, Josiah. “Commerce of the Prairies”. 1851. Philadelphia.
Romans. “Natural History of Florida”.
Baird, Professor. Pat. Office Rep., Agriculture, 1851-52, Part 2. P. 125.
Schoolcraft’s History, Condition, and Prospects of the Indian Tribes of the United States. Vol. IV, p. 94.
Allen, Joel Asaph. “History of the American Bison”. 1877. Washington.
“The Gentleman’s Magazine”. Aug. 1885.
Hunter, John Dunn. “Memoirs of a Captivity Among the Indians of North America, from Childhood to the Age of Nineteen.” 1823. London.


Buffalo Tales: The Near-Extermination of the American Bison, Native Americans and the Land, Nature Transformed, TeacherServe, National Humanities Center

Its called an inconvenient truth
No, it's called being a total idiot for providing a link, since you avoided quoting this part:

Again largely a nineteenth-century tale, the final stage from 1867 to 1884 was notable for the fury of the slaughter for hides and other products. In 1867 the first of five railroads split the herd in the heart of buffalo range, a process repeated again and again. Provisioners like Buffalo Bill Cody, sportsmen, farmers, and ranchers who craved the prairies for crops and cattle—all placed new pressure on bison. The railroads made transportation of buffalo hides easy and cheap, so market hunters flooded in, wasting three to five times the numbers they killed. The carnage from herds already depleted by other factors defied description: 4-5 million killed in three years alone. The commercial hunt was finished by the fall of 1883.


Prior to the introduction of horses on the plains, extinction of the bison would have been impossible! Even after plains tribes on horseback, the numbers didn't significantly decline until the railroad and the farmers and ranchers arrived with the obvious purpose of killing off the buffalo...that's your inconvenient truth!

People riding west on the railroad were invited to shoot buffalo from the windows of their passenger trains, and when the Indian Wars resumed after the end of the Civil War, killing off the buffalo was a top priority for arriving US mercenaries, since killing the buffalo also meant killing the indians!
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Old March 13th, 2017, 01:32 AM   #59
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The question is "dominion". I'm fully aware of the history. The dominion of land has changed hands many times in history. Currently, the dominion over that land falls into the hands of the Federal government. But, don't try to run that, the natives were ecological, or, did not believe in ownership of land passed me because, history tells a different story.
The question is not "dominion" because the concept of having dominion over the earth is a term imported from your bible and applied wherever the followers of Old Testament values chose to invade.

The native terms for land are about occupancy/not ownership. It's about who has lived there, has the right to continue living there...very similar to how most of the "undeveloped" world had a concept of "general commons," where the territory was available for use by the people who have been living there. *And not to go too far down that trail, but the bullshit story of "the tragedy of the commons" was just that...a load of rubbish, created first by the landowning classes of England and then expanded throughout the world, as they privatize more and more land and force the locals off, not only to use the land for mechanized agriculture, but to send millions of evicted peasants to move into cities and work in hellhole sweatshops.

When it comes to who is/and who is not 'ecological,' a quick example is the refusal of the Lakota people to accept payment for the Black Hills after the US Government forced them out when gold was discovered there. Today, we're told the money (held in escrow) amounts to hundreds of millions...or maybe even in the billions of dollars. Yet the poorest people in US mainland still refuse to accept payment to permanently give up their right to return to their land.

Same goes now for the controversy over forcing this Dakota Access Pipeline through treaty lands that are just outside of the reserve territory. At Standing Rock, they've had to pay a heavy price to try to stop putting this insane, deadend scheme of running a pipeline under the Missouri River.
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Old March 13th, 2017, 09:28 AM   #60
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Right wing white man's history is alternative history. I have lived and worked with Sioux, Arapaho and Navajo and have close Cherokee friends, I know a little more than the white history books teach.
This quote needs to stick around a little bit longer!!
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