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Old May 18th, 2017, 09:12 AM   #21
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I see the Sabcat is blathering, as so often, but I only see his rubbish when it's quoted. I am not of the American Right, and by 'we' I mean sane people.
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Old May 18th, 2017, 09:18 AM   #22
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I see the Sabcat is blathering, as so often, but I only see his rubbish when it's quoted. I am not of the American Right, and by 'we' I mean sane people.
So the only "sane" people are Communists?
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Old May 18th, 2017, 12:51 PM   #23
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I see the Sabcat is blathering, as so often, but I only see his rubbish when it's quoted. I am not of the American Right, and by 'we' I mean sane people.
Are you implying that Liberty minded people especially Americans are insane?
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Old May 19th, 2017, 11:17 PM   #24
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Right! That's assuming we should accept the premise of your pro-capitalist propagandist (repeating old claims made by political scientist-RJ Rummel...without attribution) that any nation claiming to be communist is actually a proletarian state following principles outlined by Marx, Lenin and Trotsky.

Be that as it may, communism pale in comparison with the death, devastation and misery inflicted on the world by the forces of capitalism...and since WWII, the American Empire in particular:

US Has Killed More Than 20 Million People in 37 “Victim Nations” Since World War II, in its direct invasions, proxy wars and dirty wars conducted by the CIA.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-has-...war-ii/5492051

And those numbers do not include the claimed deliberate famines and death tolls that US officials claimed Mao and Stalin created. No, 20 million is the casualties of US direct invasions, proxy wars, and dirty wars conducted by the CIA and this is still ongoing!

If we consider ALL deaths caused by capitalism, the death toll is incalculable:

Capitalism:
So now to the main point of this post – to try to create a list of the number of victims that have fallen prey to global capitalism. Before I continue however, an important note must be made: unlike the death tolls associated with Communism (which are caused by regimes themselves), the deaths caused by capitalism are usually the result of capitalist constructions, be they systemic poverty, imperialism, Atlantic and post-Atlantic slavery, etc. In order to head off any potential critiques of this post when I mention things like “Hurricane Katrina” or “Poverty in the US” for example, I will be explaining how each of the incidents in question can be attributed to capitalism (both in neo-liberal capitalism or strict corporate capitalism).

Another thing I must note is that anarcho-Capitalists will be quick to say “well, it’s the fact that the government was involved – that’s the issue!”. However this is not true. The “for profit” logic of capitalism has both lead to the following atrocities and has been used by governments, overtly or not, to commit the following crimes. So yes, governments may have done the following, but the logic and justification behind capitalism has created the conditions for the following.
And finally, as one last kick to anarcho-Capitalists, anarcho-Capitalism has never been implemented and thus there is no body count for that, but full Communism a la Marx hasn’t either. According to Marx, there will be an “end of history” wherein the state withers away and that is pure Communism, the rest is State Communism (much like State Capitalism) or Socialism. Two can play at the “it’s never been implemented, wahhhh!!1!” game.

So, let’s begin.

A fitting place to start would be the history of the United States from 2014 all the way back to 1776. Just to set up the framework, I will state a topic, in this case the United States, and then create bullet points with the issues in question and explaining them as needed.

The United States

5 years of drone strikes used to maintain US military dominance in the Middle East for the purpose of securing trade routes and oil reserves – 2,400 dead [11][12]
Syrian Civil War caused by the US’ funding of Syrian rebels as well as the terrorist organization Al Nusra in an attempt to overthrow the Syrian government [13][14][15][16] – at least 146,000 dead [17][18]
US Funded and NATO Intervention in Libya for the sake of overthrowing the government and getting oil [19][20][21] – estimates range from 10,000 by the deniers, to 50,000 by the rebels. The commonly accepted number by the US is 30,000 dead [22][23]
United States backed government of Sri Lanka for the sake of maintaining trade routes and neo-liberal foothold in southern Asia – 100,000 dead (some sources say 40,000 not including the huge numbers of civilians) [24][25]
The War in Iraq which was for the sake of gaining oil controlling petroleum exports [26][27] and with the interest of advancing US imperialism [28] – most recent study indicates 500,000 dead Iraqis and 4,500 dead US soldiers [29][30][31]
The War in Afghanistan – 2,000 dead US soldiers and 20,000 civilians [32][33]
US bombing of Pakistan for the War on Terror and to maintain our imperial dominance abroad – 50,000 dead [34]
US and Mexican War on Drugs to maintain a monopoly and to support military spending as well as drug cartel violence for profit – 47,000 dead [35]
Operation Desert Storm (First Gulf War) which was for the sake of maintaining dominance in the Middle East as well as for imperialistic reasons [36][37][38][39] – 158,000 Iraqis [40] – 75,000 US Soldiers dead from the War and Gulf War Syndrome [41]
US Sanctions against Iraq from 1990-2012 – 3,300,000 [42]
Iran-Iraq War where the United States funded both sides in an attempt to have each wipe the other out – about 1,500,000 [43][44][45]
The War in Vietnam to “beat Communism” and maintain an Asian sphere of influence – 3,800,000 Vietnamese between 1955-1984 [46] about 58,000 US soldiers [47] about 200,000 in Laos [48] about 300,000 in Cambodia [49] it’s hard to calculate Agent Orange deaths but up to 4,800,000 people were exposed [50] and 100,000 US soldiers killed themselves [51]
Korean War to “beat Communism” and maintain dominance in Asia – 54,000 US soldiers [52] and about 5,000,000 Koreans died [53]

The United States in Latin America and the Third World

“El Bloqueo” AKA. The Cuban Embargo – one of the more insidious forms of siege warfare of modernity [54][55] – this is one of the more difficult numbers to come up with so I will give you what I have and then add a commentary – 47,000 children dead [56] and the Embargo has stifled medical technology and lead to the deaths of tons more. The numbers are uncalculatable [57]. Here are some statistics: As a result, in a few years the effects on consumption by the general population were in evidence: daily caloric consumption, for example, dropped 34 percent, and protein intake plummeted 40 percent between 1989 and the worst year of the crisis, 1993. [58]



What’s worse, the Embargo is NOT aimed at the elites, but at the civilians of Cuba. The elites are isolated from the effects and so the poorest of the poor see the impacts. [55][58][59] To me, El Bloqueo is one of most heinous crimes the United States has engaged in.

Former CIA Station Chief in Angola in 1976, covert agent, and the highest level CIA officer to testify to Congress, John Stockwell, tells a grisly tale of US involvement in foreign countries for the sake of money and geopolitics. He cites covert operations in Nicaragua, Panama, Guatemala, Haiti, the Dominican Republic, and Cuba, to name a few. Over the course of his testimony and lecture he extensively researched the actions he was involved in and figured out that given the bombings of water supplies and other essential infrastructure, the invasions, the coups, etc. in third world countries, the United States, on its quest for empire, has been responsible for 6,000,000 deaths. Just let that soak in. According to the official story of the Holocaust, that’s how many Jews were killed. This is an unheard genocide against the third world FOR PROFIT and FOR POWER.[60] If you read nothing else or watch nothing else, read/watch his lecture.

Genocides and Other Mass Deaths

Poverty. One of the most overlooked causes of death today is something called “structural violence” – that is, violence against the bottom rungs of society in order to make a profit. Structural violence can occur due to lack of medical care, slashing of wages, gentrification, etc. But without a doubt, structural violence is the largest killer WORLDWIDE. Studies performed by Canadian researches Gernot Kohler and Norman Alcock published under the title “An Empirical Table of Structural Violence” found that 18,000,000 people die each year due to systemic poverty [61][62].

To put this into perspective, allow me to quote professor of Psychiatry James Gilligan (emphasis is my own):

Comparing this frequency of deaths from structural violence to the frequency of those caused by major military and political violence, such as World War II (an estimated 49 million military and civilian deaths, including those by genocide—or about eight million per year, 1939-1945), the Indonesian massacre of 1965-66 (perhaps 575,000) deaths), the Vietnam war (possibly two million, 1954-1973), and even a hypothetical nuclear exchange between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. (232 million), it was clear that even war cannot begin to compare with structural violence, which continues year after year. In other words, every fifteen years, on the average, as many people die because of relative poverty as would be killed by the Nazi genocide of the Jews over a six-year period. This is, in effect, the equivalent of an ongoing, unending, in fact accelerating, thermonuclear war, or genocide, perpetrated on the weak and poor every year of every decade, throughout the world. [62]

This is recurring violence that happens year after year after year, the scale of which is unprecedented. Hell, if one takes Rummel’s and The Black Book of Communism’s claims seriously, structural violence has killed more people in JUST the 21st century, than Communism.
The Genocide of the Native Americans – according to professor of ethics Ward Churchill, over 10,000,000 Native Americans were slaughtered [63] and other studies by historian and professor David Stannard indicate that the number is closer to 100,000,000 if one includes South America (Churchill only looks at North America). *To avoid any conflict, I will split the difference in my final calculation and use 50,000,000 [64]
Slavery (not just White slavery) – over 1200 years of Arab slave trading and then 500 years of European slave trading amounts to over 100,000,000 people enslaved and killed (there were about 80,000,000 that would just be slaves)[65]
Children Killed by Preventable Diseases yearly – 5,000,000 [66]
Children Killed by Hunger daily – 17,000 (multiplying to get a year so 17,000*365=6,205,000) [67]

And I have left off a thousand tiny events like factories collapsing due to unsafe regulations, Hurricane Katrina, the rape of women in Maquiladoras, and I even left off the two World Wars so there will be no debate about whether those were capitalism vs. communism. But the fact of the matter is, the sheer number of people that have died due to unseen violence and structural violence over the years is obscene. But all one has to do is look at the data and look at the world around you.

Ignoring other big wars due to capitalism and only focusing on US action and only including one year for things that are systemic (ie. poverty), which is being really damn conservative because Japan engaged in brutal imperialism, we get a total of 205,000,000 killed directly or indirectly because of capitalism.

So please, before you go waving Rummel around or you throw around “look how many people Communism killed!!”, think for a second and look at the data.

Note: This is by no means a complete list and I, just like everyone else, am prone to errors. But I feel like the fact that every number is sourced at least once and easily verifiable speaks for itself. If you have an issue, please let me know.

Attempting the Impossible ? Calculating Capitalism?s Death Toll ? Peter Says Stuff

So There!!!!!
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Old May 19th, 2017, 11:21 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by iolo View Post
I see the Sabcat is blathering, as so often, but I only see his rubbish when it's quoted. I am not of the American Right, and by 'we' I mean sane people.
The anarcho-capitalist right is losing it now that capitalism has been demonstrated to be a failed system that is sowing the seeds of its own destruction...but unfortunately in our brave new world of Full Spectrum Dominance, that destruction includes all of us too!
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Old May 19th, 2017, 11:27 PM   #26
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The point iolo is making is that those were not communists in the true theoretical meaning of the term, they were despotic dictators. The same argument I use when I deny that Venezuela is representative of a socialist state.

I don't think it is simply a semantic argument. When iolo says communist he means something very different than when Sabcat says it.

FTR, I personally don't think a pure communist state or a pure socialist state would work. Just as I know a pure capitalist state or a pure anarchy wouldn't work.
Right! I heard one foreign policy expert (I forget the name) point out last week that no Venezuelan government...right or left has been able to develop a domestic economy. Like Saudi Arabia and other petrostates, Venezuela has been depending on money from oil exports longer than any other nation in the world.

It was also pointed out that the military owns much of the industry and business in the country directly, in a similar manner as Egypt and Pakistan...and that's one of the reasons why the US can't get a military coup off the ground there.
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Old May 19th, 2017, 11:29 PM   #27
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Today we have masked self proclaimed communists marching in the streets pointing at anyone who disagrees w/ them and calling them "Nazis".
Weren't you crying about this in your opening post? Why repeat the same stupid thing again in the 2nd post?
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Old May 19th, 2017, 11:30 PM   #28
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The anarcho-capitalist right is losing it now that capitalism has been demonstrated to be a failed system that is sowing the seeds of its own destruction...but unfortunately in our brave new world of Full Spectrum Dominance, that destruction includes all of us too!
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Old May 19th, 2017, 11:31 PM   #29
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These masked terrorists are self proclaimed communists, flying communist flags from the failed states who are being referenced.

So is it jumping to conclutions to associate someone who enters the discussion in defence of these actors w/ the actors and their actions?

I don't think so.

This is not a discussion of actual events, real communist mobs and the calling everyday people Nazis in an attempt to justify their behavior.
Most of them are self-proclaimed anarchists...but what has Antifa got to do with your thread topic?
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Old May 19th, 2017, 11:36 PM   #30
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Read something besides drivel posted by idiot bloggers! Stalin originally tried to seize control of the Bolshevik Party in the spring of 1917(with an accomplice who's name I forget) and cut a deal with the Provisional Government that overthrew the Czar...and he was lucky he wasn't executed before he had a 2nd chance to take control of the Party after Lenin's death. Even non-Trotskyites have long believed that Stalin was just an opportunist who saw the Communist Party as a vehicle to make himself supreme ruler.
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