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Old September 13th, 2017, 07:00 AM   #251
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[QUOTE=discollector;1095751]
Quote:
Originally Posted by guy39 View Post

Absolute idiocy!

I never made my argument with a start at the 14th Amendment. My argument was made earlier in this thread, reminding one of my critics that the build the wall arguments are predicated upon talking points supplied by Neo- Nazis.

Insofar as the 14th Amendment, I rely on judges, historians, professional legal researchers, and law professors to guide me.

The Fourteenth Amendment is Unconstitutional - Judge L.H. Perez

David Lawrence: There is No "Fourteenth Amendment"!

I can work either way. The 14th Amendment states (in part):


"nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Not only do the build the wall advocates want to implement National Socialist / Hitler style National ID, but they seem to ignore the very laws they rely on. In this case, they ignore the part of the 14th Amendment guaranteeing to every person (as differentiated from citizens) the equal protection of the laws.

But, I won't argue with them in their dishonest argument of whether or not undocumented immigrants have rights. Instead I'd like to focus on their silliest of arguments (only since it was earlier implied.)

The build the wall advocates accuse undocumented foreigners of stealing American jobs. This is quite a trick since the United States is not yet a Socialist country - at least not formally. Therefore, the jobs belong to the employer that creates them. Only in socialist / communist countries does the government own the jobs and control the production. It's impossible for a foreigner to steal something of yours that you never owned.

What the government could do - what the government should do is to incentivize private employers to hire Americans. No, there are no laws that say employers must seek out American workers. IF employers were put on the spot of paying substantially less in taxes OR hiring whomever they want, the immigration problem would disappear. However, like race whores, the build the wall people need the controversy, the rhetoric, and the adversarial nature of addressing the issue.
Let me help you out there
Quote:
No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
It says State. States have no jurisdiction over immigration. Period. That does not guarantee immigrants anything on a federal level. The State is being told they may not handle immigration matters. That is a federal issue. That is the law of the land.

Lets look at it all since your one of those cherry pickers

Quote:
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Thats from the 14th, but since your going to predicate your argument based on tinfoil your going to be fun to laugh at.
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Old September 13th, 2017, 07:37 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by guy39 View Post
You really know fuck all about my position on anything
1. I am a black man.
2. I am very socially libertarian up to and including legalization of pot and no government involved in marriage. At all. Pro gun. Certainly not whatever liberal horse shit your attempting to assign me
3. I hate Communism/Socialism. I really would never shed a tear if every Marxist fell over dead today.
4. You earned that fill in the blank. You still are
I don't need to know what your position is. You are siding with National Socialists on the immigration issue.

In 2003 there were civilian militia and border patrol efforts along the border. One day some Salvadorans tried to enter the United States over private property. A group called Ranch Rescue, protecting private property at the behest of the land owner, encountered and repelled them. The matter ended up in court.

At the end of the day the judge found Ranch Rescue members guilty of violating the civil rights of the Salvadorans. Ranch Rescue members were put in prison; the landowner lost his ranch:

https://www.splcenter.org/seeking-ju...v-ranch-rescue

Instead of appealing the judge's decision, Ranch Rescue folded. And, as they were folding up their tents, Jim Gilchrist and Chris Simcox came riding into town on their figurative white horses to save America from the evil "illegal aliens" as they called them. The problem was, as I see it, Gilchrist and Simcox had done nothing except dig the old 1970s "Border Watch" idea out of dust bin and give David Duke, the former Ku Klux Klan leader a degree of credibility.

Gilchrist and Simcox would go around the country, emptying the civilian militias - and recruiting people like yourself to pursue those they wanted to call "illegal aliens." With their "Minutemen" they would develop an agenda, relying mostly on the John Tanton nonprofits (Center for Immigration Studies / CIS, Federation for American Immigration Reform / FAIR, and NumbersUSA plus close to a dozen more) for their talking points.

While the Minutemen groups would split up, their goals would remain the same and they continued to this day to rely on John Tanton for his skewed statistics on the subject. But, let me tell you a bit about the players in this game... the men and women who founded the effort you blindly follow:

John Tanton, the money man behind the non-profit organizations mentioned earlier is a believer in eugenics. According to Wikipedia:

" He founded the pro-eugenics organization Society for Genetic
Education
."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Tanton

So, what is eugenics? Check out this link and think about it:

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

Again, relying on Wikipedia:

"Nazi Germany's racially based social policies that placed the biological improvement of the Aryan race or Germanic "Übermenschen" master race through eugenics at the center of Nazi ideology."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_eugenics

Let's get back to the founders now of your movement.

* In about 2004 Jim Gilchrist and Chris Simcox started the so - called "Minutemen." Jim Gilchrist was a run of the mill racist, nothing special and in 2007 he was fired by the board of Directors of the Minutemen and he went on to try the anti-immigrant thing on his own (more on him later)

* Chris Simcox teamed up with J.T. Ready and formed the Minutemen Civil Defense Corps. In 2006 Simcox petitioned George W. Bush to build a border wall. That became the signature piece of the Minuteman platform and was endorsed by all factions of the Minutemen (and by that time there were several offshoots of the original)

Both Chris Simcox and J.T. Ready were exposed as nazis ... not white supremacists, not racists, not alt right but neo nazis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ6owsJTCYI

https://www.dcourier.com/news/2006/j...ounty-republi/

Chris Simcox would ultimately go to prison on sex charges while J.T. Ready committed a mass murder and then killed himself:

Ex-Minuteman Chris Simcox sentenced to 19.5 years in child sex-abuse case

Neo-Nazi Murder-Suicide Suspect was Active in Arizona Anti-Illegal Immigration Politics | Fox News

So, there you have original plan for the border wall idea being developed by a neo nazi and it is the same, identical plan that Donald Trump ran on in his presidential campaign. And there is still more.

ANOTHER of the spin-off anti-immigrant "Minutemen" groups is nazis:


https://shadowproof.com/2008/05/04/a...ts-with-nazis/

For a moment, let's return to Jim Gilchrist. In 2007, Shawna Forde organized an "Illegal Immigration Summit” in Everett, Washington and the featured speaker was Jim Gilchrist. In 2009 Gilchrist promoted Forde to the position of director of border operations. As fate would have it, Forde was organizing border watches with Glen Spencer in 2007.

In 2009 Shawna Forde (who was friends with J.T. Ready) was convicted of murder for killing a child and an adult on the border:

Forde convicted in killing of Arivaca man, daughter | Crime | tucson.com

And so, ALL of the Minutemen groups were / are led by nazis. The border wall idea was the nazis idea and the Republicans knew it. Donald Trump, knowing it, endorsed it. The wall idea came about because the nazis dusted off David Duke's Border Watch idea and ran with it. Trump knew it and chose to lie about ever having known Duke until the media called him on it.

But there is much more

Steve Bannon is cozy with the National Alliance. Bannon, is into eugenics:

https://mic.com/articles/168138/stev...ary#.pOSlej4HF

I'm just scratching the surface here. You might be the salt of the earth. I'm pro-gun and most of the stuff you are. I've even said we have an immigration problem. The issue here is that the proposed SOLUTIONS you have been exposed to are the product of nazis... not the extreme right, not conservatives, but outright murdering nazis.

They do not have any permanent solutions and, at the end of the day, they have cost us TRILLIONS of tax dollars and taken away more of your LIBERTIES in two decades than the liberals have in the past six decades!
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Old September 13th, 2017, 07:52 AM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by discollector View Post
I don't need to know what your position is. You are siding with National Socialists on the immigration issue.

In 2003 there were civilian militia and border patrol efforts along the border. One day some Salvadorans tried to enter the United States over private property. A group called Ranch Rescue, protecting private property at the behest of the land owner, encountered and repelled them. The matter ended up in court.

At the end of the day the judge found Ranch Rescue members guilty of violating the civil rights of the Salvadorans. Ranch Rescue members were put in prison; the landowner lost his ranch:

https://www.splcenter.org/seeking-ju...v-ranch-rescue

Instead of appealing the judge's decision, Ranch Rescue folded. And, as they were folding up their tents, Jim Gilchrist and Chris Simcox came riding into town on their figurative white horses to save America from the evil "illegal aliens" as they called them. The problem was, as I see it, Gilchrist and Simcox had done nothing except dig the old 1970s "Border Watch" idea out of dust bin and give David Duke, the former Ku Klux Klan leader a degree of credibility.

Gilchrist and Simcox would go around the country, emptying the civilian militias - and recruiting people like yourself to pursue those they wanted to call "illegal aliens." With their "Minutemen" they would develop an agenda, relying mostly on the John Tanton nonprofits (Center for Immigration Studies / CIS, Federation for American Immigration Reform / FAIR, and NumbersUSA plus close to a dozen more) for their talking points.

While the Minutemen groups would split up, their goals would remain the same and they continued to this day to rely on John Tanton for his skewed statistics on the subject. But, let me tell you a bit about the players in this game... the men and women who founded the effort you blindly follow:

John Tanton, the money man behind the non-profit organizations mentioned earlier is a believer in eugenics. According to Wikipedia:

" He founded the pro-eugenics organization Society for Genetic
Education
."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Tanton

So, what is eugenics? Check out this link and think about it:

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

Again, relying on Wikipedia:

"Nazi Germany's racially based social policies that placed the biological improvement of the Aryan race or Germanic "Übermenschen" master race through eugenics at the center of Nazi ideology."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_eugenics

Let's get back to the founders now of your movement.

* In about 2004 Jim Gilchrist and Chris Simcox started the so - called "Minutemen." Jim Gilchrist was a run of the mill racist, nothing special and in 2007 he was fired by the board of Directors of the Minutemen and he went on to try the anti-immigrant thing on his own (more on him later)

* Chris Simcox teamed up with J.T. Ready and formed the Minutemen Civil Defense Corps. In 2006 Simcox petitioned George W. Bush to build a border wall. That became the signature piece of the Minuteman platform and was endorsed by all factions of the Minutemen (and by that time there were several offshoots of the original)

Both Chris Simcox and J.T. Ready were exposed as nazis ... not white supremacists, not racists, not alt right but neo nazis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ6owsJTCYI

https://www.dcourier.com/news/2006/j...ounty-republi/

Chris Simcox would ultimately go to prison on sex charges while J.T. Ready committed a mass murder and then killed himself:

Ex-Minuteman Chris Simcox sentenced to 19.5 years in child sex-abuse case

Neo-Nazi Murder-Suicide Suspect was Active in Arizona Anti-Illegal Immigration Politics | Fox News

So, there you have original plan for the border wall idea being developed by a neo nazi and it is the same, identical plan that Donald Trump ran on in his presidential campaign. And there is still more.

ANOTHER of the spin-off anti-immigrant "Minutemen" groups is nazis:


https://shadowproof.com/2008/05/04/a...ts-with-nazis/

For a moment, let's return to Jim Gilchrist. In 2007, Shawna Forde organized an "Illegal Immigration Summit” in Everett, Washington and the featured speaker was Jim Gilchrist. In 2009 Gilchrist promoted Forde to the position of director of border operations. As fate would have it, Forde was organizing border watches with Glen Spencer in 2007.

In 2009 Shawna Forde (who was friends with J.T. Ready) was convicted of murder for killing a child and an adult on the border:

Forde convicted in killing of Arivaca man, daughter | Crime | tucson.com

And so, ALL of the Minutemen groups were / are led by nazis. The border wall idea was the nazis idea and the Republicans knew it. Donald Trump, knowing it, endorsed it. The wall idea came about because the nazis dusted off David Duke's Border Watch idea and ran with it. Trump knew it and chose to lie about ever having known Duke until the media called him on it.

But there is much more

Steve Bannon is cozy with the National Alliance. Bannon, is into eugenics:

https://mic.com/articles/168138/stev...ary#.pOSlej4HF

I'm just scratching the surface here. You might be the salt of the earth. I'm pro-gun and most of the stuff you are. I've even said we have an immigration problem. The issue here is that the proposed SOLUTIONS you have been exposed to are the product of nazis... not the extreme right, not conservatives, but outright murdering nazis.

They do not have any permanent solutions and, at the end of the day, they have cost us TRILLIONS of tax dollars and taken away more of your LIBERTIES in two decades than the liberals have in the past six decades!
All of that bullshit just to scream nazi at someone you disagree with. The "civilian militia" was not the federal government. They were acting independently or with the blessings of the State. Neither of which has the authority to deal with immigration. You just love to scream nazi dont you
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Old September 13th, 2017, 08:41 AM   #254
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All of that bullshit just to scream nazi at someone you disagree with. The "civilian militia" was not the federal government. They were acting independently or with the blessings of the State. Neither of which has the authority to deal with immigration. You just love to scream nazi dont you
You are making idiot arguments.

What I want to scream is that those who bought that pig in a poke / nutty wall idea are idiots.

The fact that people were part of a militia is irrelevant as all Hell. You have a really hard time discerning facts versus irrelevant information. If a private property owner employs individuals, Ranch Rescue, etc. to do a job - who they are is irrelevant. The issue was whether or not a private property owner can protect their property from trespassers.

You chose to obfuscate that because you don't have a point. It's just like you cannot understand that there isn't a swinging Richard around here debating whether or not the federal government controls immigration. They do, but it is unconstitutional. They have the power to enforce unjust laws; they simply lack the authority.

You seem to have a problem with the truth. So, you dodge, deflect, and throw up smoke screens. Give it up. It's not going to work this time.

Ignoring the points to manufacture your own arguments against me (and creating one straw man argument after another) is pointless. Anybody with half a brain can see through your little charade.

It's not that I just disagree with those people. I've personally witnessed and been a victim of the laws they have caused to be implemented. Be it the so - called "Patriot Act," the National ID / REAL ID Act, the end of the presumption of innocence / innocent until proven guilty or any of the other travesties of justice the build the wall guys have lobbied for, I oppose the POLICE STATE. They are good at making proselytes that cannot discuss the facts. I even once read about people like you:

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, you make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." Matt 23 : 15
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Old September 13th, 2017, 12:16 PM   #255
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@discollector: So again, given the fact that probably several to many cases involving the 14th have gone to the SC and it still stands proud, why should we believe you that it is unconstitutional when the guys who are accepted as constitutional experts and are vetted by Congress and are paid big bucks to do that disagree with you?
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Old September 13th, 2017, 12:48 PM   #256
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@discollector: So again, given the fact that probably several to many cases involving the 14th have gone to the SC and it still stands proud, why should we believe you that it is unconstitutional when the guys who are accepted as constitutional experts and are vetted by Congress and are paid big bucks to do that disagree with you?
Quite frankly, I don't see what it is you think there is to be disagreeable about.

I have stipulated that the 14th Amendment is law. That, however, regardless of how you spin it, does not change my arguments. I argued my case both with as well as without the 14th Amendment.

Be that as it may, the 14th Amendment was illegally ratified. Now, it wasn't that long ago that people like you were not in office (historically speaking.) Just because the guys with the big bucks could enforce unconscionable laws did not make them right.

You know, I think the build the walls guys need these deflections to keep from focusing on what the issue is. What I think about the 14th Amendment is a personal issue that history will ultimately decide. History is cyclical. Bear that in mind. It has NOTHING to do with the issue at hand.

Immigration and citizenship are different subjects. The fact that the United States Supreme Court illegally gave control of immigration over to the federal government is academic. Sure, your side has the power to enforce unconstitutional laws. For God's sake, I've NEVER denied that! That is not your problem.

The real problem you have is that the solutions you got from the nazis won't work. I hope that some day you will be able to understand that point. America is being controlled by an illegal / de facto government operating out of Washington Wonderland, District of Corruption and, since people like yourself want to rule by power and the left wants to subvert the country and turn us into a socialist democracy, you're both setting us up for an end to our constitutional Republic.
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Old September 13th, 2017, 02:30 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by discollector View Post
Quite frankly, I don't see what it is you think there is to be disagreeable about.

I have stipulated that the 14th Amendment is law. That, however, regardless of how you spin it, does not change my arguments. I argued my case both with as well as without the 14th Amendment.

Be that as it may, the 14th Amendment was illegally ratified. Now, it wasn't that long ago that people like you were not in office (historically speaking.) Just because the guys with the big bucks could enforce unconscionable laws did not make them right.

You know, I think the build the walls guys need these deflections to keep from focusing on what the issue is. What I think about the 14th Amendment is a personal issue that history will ultimately decide. History is cyclical. Bear that in mind. It has NOTHING to do with the issue at hand.

Immigration and citizenship are different subjects. The fact that the United States Supreme Court illegally gave control of immigration over to the federal government is academic. Sure, your side has the power to enforce unconstitutional laws. For God's sake, I've NEVER denied that! That is not your problem.

The real problem you have is that the solutions you got from the nazis won't work. I hope that some day you will be able to understand that point. America is being controlled by an illegal / de facto government operating out of Washington Wonderland, District of Corruption and, since people like yourself want to rule by power and the left wants to subvert the country and turn us into a socialist democracy, you're both setting us up for an end to our constitutional Republic.
The only point I am disagreeing with is your claim that the 14th was illegally ratified. If so, why does it still stand?
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Old September 13th, 2017, 02:35 PM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by discollector View Post
Quite frankly, I don't see what it is you think there is to be disagreeable about.

I have stipulated that the 14th Amendment is law. That, however, regardless of how you spin it, does not change my arguments. I argued my case both with as well as without the 14th Amendment.

Be that as it may, the 14th Amendment was illegally ratified. Now, it wasn't that long ago that people like you were not in office (historically speaking.) Just because the guys with the big bucks could enforce unconscionable laws did not make them right.

You know, I think the build the walls guys need these deflections to keep from focusing on what the issue is. What I think about the 14th Amendment is a personal issue that history will ultimately decide. History is cyclical. Bear that in mind. It has NOTHING to do with the issue at hand.

Immigration and citizenship are different subjects. The fact that the United States Supreme Court illegally gave control of immigration over to the federal government is academic. Sure, your side has the power to enforce unconstitutional laws. For God's sake, I've NEVER denied that! That is not your problem.

The real problem you have is that the solutions you got from the nazis won't work. I hope that some day you will be able to understand that point. America is being controlled by an illegal / de facto government operating out of Washington Wonderland, District of Corruption and, since people like yourself want to rule by power and the left wants to subvert the country and turn us into a socialist democracy, you're both setting us up for an end to our constitutional Republic.
Gee, some anonymous guy on the internet has a personal opinion.
Quelle surprise!
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Old September 13th, 2017, 03:21 PM   #259
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g3 #253

The Nazis are often criticized for eugenics.
But they got the idea from the United States. We did it first.
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Old September 13th, 2017, 05:24 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by RNG View Post
The only point I am disagreeing with is your claim that the 14th was illegally ratified. If so, why does it still stand?
It stands as do a lot of unconstitutional laws - there are high end power brokers.

Your side is in no better position to criticize me. Think about it. The claim with those opposed to immigration is that the 14th Amendment never intended to give the children of undocumented immigrants citizenship - yet it does.

What's worse, now that it's been done, you cannot change it without a repeal of the 14th Amendment. Of course, the generation before you were fighting to have the 14th nullified. But, then you wouldn't have that silly "anchor baby" argument.

NOBODY wants the issue resolved. The chaos and the confusion keep political propaganda prostitutes fed. And, no matter how you tie to criticize me or find fault with my personal opinions, you keep getting smacked with reality... the build the wall, adopt the National Socialist solutions are headed for inevitable defeat.
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