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Old September 4th, 2017, 11:04 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Camelot View Post
Their politicians have been dangerously using racial dogwhistles for decades. Chump merely took it mainstream. They try to deny their racial hatred but Chump brought it out into the sunshine for everyone to see.
spot on

not only brought it out into the sunshine - but told the haters that the leader of the nation had their backs
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Old September 4th, 2017, 04:07 PM   #42
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The difference between us, I think, is that and I have a legal background and you have a theological one. And while I may disagree with an issue such as same-sex marriage, let's say, from a biblical point of view, I cannot ascertain any legal or constitutional argument against it that bears rational substance. Therefore I cannot as a citizen of this country justify a movement to oppose it. "Equal Protection of the laws" applies to all people, citizen or alien, legally or illegally in the country, right or left, straight or gay, not just to those who ascribe to my particular reading of certain passages in the Bible.
I happen to agree about the equal protection. I also voted against the Minnesota constitutional amendment which would have prohibited same sex marriage. Yet as someone with a theological background, I sometimes have the opportunity to preach and teach the Bible. Is the left okay with me teaching that the Bible is in opposition to same sex marriage, or does such a message make me a "hater" in the eyes of the left? I'm serious about this question. If some on the left consider me a "hater," are they part of the extreme left, or are they the general, average left.

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Further, when it comes to "calling out sin", except where an action is clearly against the law, I am prone to be much more concerned with my own shortcomings than with the personal and private choices of those around me. So in the end, who am I to first of all to snoop, and secondly to judge?
Well, if a person is teaching the Bible, and they get to verses that call out specific sins, I don't think the Bible teacher should just skip over those verses for fear that the listeners will feel snooped on or judged. God has put those verses in the Bible so that we know what things God considers to be sin.
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Old September 4th, 2017, 04:21 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Bookworm View Post
I happen to agree about the equal protection. I also voted against the Minnesota constitutional amendment which would have prohibited same sex marriage. Yet as someone with a theological background, I sometimes have the opportunity to preach and teach the Bible. Is the left okay with me teaching that the Bible is in opposition to same sex marriage, or does such a message make me a "hater" in the eyes of the left? I'm serious about this question. If some on the left consider me a "hater," are they part of the extreme left, or are they the general, average left.

Well, if a person is teaching the Bible, and they get to verses that call out specific sins, I don't think the Bible teacher should just skip over those verses for fear that the listeners will feel snooped on or judged. God has put those verses in the Bible so that we know what things God considers to be sin.
Not many people I know are against you teaching it in your church, your home or even on the street.

It is when you wish to use public facilities for your message that it becomes a problem.

And even worse when you try to enact legislation mandating the application of your beliefs.

I, of course mean "you" in the non-specific plural. I should have used "one" but it always makes it sound a bit pretentious.
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Old September 4th, 2017, 08:03 PM   #44
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Not many people I know are against you teaching it in your church, your home or even on the street.

It is when you wish to use public facilities for your message that it becomes a problem.
And yet some would consider a public street to be a public facility and would have a problem with me being there. Now, I've never felt street preaching to be a very effective form of ministry, but it is legal. Suppose a group of people were to surround me while I was preaching on the street and try to shout me down and even begin pushing me. Who is more likely to be removed from the situation? The crowd of people surrounding me, or me? Who is more likely to be accused of inciting violence? The crowd of people pushing me, or me?
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Old September 4th, 2017, 08:17 PM   #45
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Their politicians have been dangerously using racial dogwhistles for decades. Chump merely took it mainstream. They try to deny their racial hatred but Chump brought it out into the sunshine for everyone to see.

I love that term "dog-whistles".....the only ones hearing "dog-whistles" are the loons on the left, who hear hidden phrases in everything Trump says..... Like Trump supporting the Klan and Neo-Nazis that the leftroids hear in there somehow.....
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Old September 4th, 2017, 08:38 PM   #46
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And yet some would consider a public street to be a public facility and would have a problem with me being there. Now, I've never felt street preaching to be a very effective form of ministry, but it is legal. Suppose a group of people were to surround me while I was preaching on the street and try to shout me down and even begin pushing me. Who is more likely to be removed from the situation? The crowd of people surrounding me, or me? Who is more likely to be accused of inciting violence? The crowd of people pushing me, or me?
As long as there was no violence, I don't think there would be anyone removed. However, those people have as much right to shout you down as you have to preach as long as they don't contravene laws.

I must admit I have a problem when protesters of any stripe block roads and such. There are ample places where protests can be held legally.
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Old September 5th, 2017, 02:33 AM   #47
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I happen to agree about the equal protection. I also voted against the Minnesota constitutional amendment which would have prohibited same sex marriage. Yet as someone with a theological background, I sometimes have the opportunity to preach and teach the Bible. Is the left okay with me teaching that the Bible is in opposition to same sex marriage, or does such a message make me a "hater" in the eyes of the left? I'm serious about this question. If some on the left consider me a "hater," are they part of the extreme left, or are they the general, average left.
I think some misunderstanding arises when an entire segment of the population is labeled as though they possess a single collective mind rather than as individuals. I find that I take a more conservative view on some public issues, and a more moderate or liberal view on others. Some would call you a hater simply because you use the word Bible, even though the are completely ignorant of what the Bible says because they've never read it. That would be like a right wing nationalist calling a devout Muslim a terrorist because he believes the message of the Koran. Nothing can be done about the "haterphobes" who exercise "preemptive hate".

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Well, if a person is teaching the Bible, and they get to verses that call out specific sins, I don't think the Bible teacher should just skip over those verses for fear that the listeners will feel snooped on or judged. God has put those verses in the Bible so that we know what things God considers to be sin.
Again there is a fundamental difference between "teaching" the Bible and using it as a bully pulpit to hammer one's neighbors into submission. The Bible says a great deal more about the sin of pride and arrogance than it does about choosing one's domestic partner. Personally I believe a careful reading of the judgement of Sodom will reveal that it came not because the men there were gay, but because they were violent animals. They didn't want to MEET Lot's guests or even solicit them; they wanted Lot's guests surrendered to them to be publicly gang-raped, and threatened Lot's family with violence if he did not comply. That kind of behavior is unacceptable in any civilized community, gay or straight. Defining it as sin is a duty as well as a right, and so it should be "called out", and if condemning that kind of behavior is called "hating" then I am a "hater" as well.

The problem comes when a certain minority group on one side of the political divide wants to use the law as a weapon to suppress the peaceful freedom of those who hold to opposing views, and to regulate private personal matters that are quite frankly none of their business to begin with.

Last edited by Asimov; September 5th, 2017 at 12:26 PM.
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Old September 5th, 2017, 03:32 AM   #48
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At least in my part of the country, you'll be hard pressed to find an evangelical that isn't also a hard core conservative. It baffles me too. They'll sit there and "praise Jesus" then turn around and say the most God awful things about the rest of the world. If you ain't white, bible thumping and gun toting, you're definitely the enemy. Some of them are not far removed from the Westboro mindset. They absolutely believe they know God's mind and have no trouble speaking for him !! But don't you dare remind them of what Jesus actually said !!!

I spent most of my life as a pretty solid conservative, but in the old school way. I liked the old republican party, the one that tried to keep a bit of a lid on spending, was pro business but not opposed to regulation, but also passed the civil rights act and any number of other bits of legislation aimed at minorities.

But as old Barry Goldwater said, the Republicans got in bed with the evangelicals and they've taken over the party. I didn't leave the GOP, it left me. It took a hard right turn. As they've taken that turn they've become increasingly unwilling to compromise. Again as Goldwater said, they believe they are doing God's work and simply don't feel the need to compromise. It's become all or nothing. Even among the less religious it seems they've adopted an absolute party first attitude. I'm actually glad to see the moderates trying to pull the party back to the mainstream before it completely crashes and burns.

That is so unfair, and untrue to most Christians, especially the part in bold. I just spent the weekend in Toronto talking to, and helping the homeless, and anyone else willing to have a conversation, regardless of what color what sexual preference and even what nationality they were.
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Old September 5th, 2017, 05:18 AM   #49
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That is so unfair, and untrue to most Christians, especially the part in bold. I just spent the weekend in Toronto talking to, and helping the homeless, and anyone else willing to have a conversation, regardless of what color what sexual preference and even what nationality they were.

Well good for you. And tell us, what "conversation" were you having with them ?? Were you proselytizing ?? Or were you simply talking about the weather or other small talk ?? TRUE charity comes with no strings. If you're using "helping the homeless" to "spread the word" then it's not true charity is it ??

As far as the part in bold ? While I truly hate to stereotype where I live, but come on down to the southeast. I'll be glad to introduce you to some of the very people I mentioned. I don't argue with them. They are my customers, so I keep it professional and ignore their comments. But that doesn't stop them from trying to start the discussions or making comments. I'm not saying ALL Christians, but there is certainly a sizable contingent down in my part of the country.

And yes, I find it perplexing just how someone that calls themselves Christian can hold some of those beliefs and opinions. But I had one preacher, that told me being black was the mark of Cain and as such blacks were ordained by God to be subservient to whites.

However on the other hand, I have a coworker that is also a preacher and we have surprisingly similar world views.
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Old September 5th, 2017, 06:16 AM   #50
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Well good for you. And tell us, what "conversation" were you having with them ?? Were you proselytizing ?? Or were you simply talking about the weather or other small talk ?? TRUE charity comes with no strings. If you're using "helping the homeless" to "spread the word" then it's not true charity is it ??

As far as the part in bold ? While I truly hate to stereotype where I live, but come on down to the southeast. I'll be glad to introduce you to some of the very people I mentioned. I don't argue with them. They are my customers, so I keep it professional and ignore their comments. But that doesn't stop them from trying to start the discussions or making comments. I'm not saying ALL Christians, but there is certainly a sizable contingent down in my part of the country.

And yes, I find it perplexing just how someone that calls themselves Christian can hold some of those beliefs and opinions. But I had one preacher, that told me being black was the mark of Cain and as such blacks were ordained by God to be subservient to whites.

However on the other hand, I have a coworker that is also a preacher and we have surprisingly similar world views.
The Revised Standard Version of King James' Bible is the official Bible in the Methodist Church.
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