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Old September 12th, 2017, 03:05 AM   #1
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No Wonder Opposing Views Can't Discuss Like Adults

I just read this article on "Townhall" website. The split/hair semantic division is, IMO, absurd (and, of course, because it's a conservative site, biased). It's no wonder that we can't discuss an issue - any issue when we are forced to contend with such semantic gymnastics.

Leftism Is Not Liberalism

What is the difference between a leftist and a liberal?

Answering this question is vital to understanding the crisis facing America and the West today. Yet few seem able to do it. I offer the following as a guide.

Here's the first thing to know: The two have almost nothing in common.

On the contrary, liberalism has far more in common with conservatism than it does with leftism. The left has appropriated the word "liberal" so effectively that almost everyone -- liberals, leftists and conservatives -- thinks they are synonymous.

But they aren't. Let's look at some important examples.

Race: This is perhaps the most obvious of the many moral differences between liberalism and leftism. The essence of the liberal position on race was that the color of one's skin is insignificant. To liberals of a generation ago, only racists believed that race is intrinsically significant. However, to the left, the notion that race is insignificant is itself racist. Thus, the University of California officially regards the statement "There is only one race, the human race" as racist. For that reason, liberals were passionately committed to racial integration. Liberals should be sickened by the existence of black dormitories and separate black graduations on university campuses.

Capitalism: Liberals have always been pro capitalism, recognizing it for what it is: the only economic means of lifting great numbers out of poverty. Liberals did often view government as able to play a bigger role in lifting people out of poverty than conservatives, but they were never opposed to capitalism, and they were never for socialism. Opposition to capitalism and advocacy of socialism are leftist values.

Nationalism: Liberals deeply believed in the nation-state, whether their nation was the United States, Great Britain or France. The left has always opposed nationalism because leftism is rooted in class solidarity, not national solidarity. The left has contempt for nationalism, seeing in it intellectual and moral primitivism at best, and the road to fascism at worst. Liberals always wanted to protect American sovereignty and borders. The notion of open borders would have struck a liberal as just as objectionable as it does a conservative. It is emblematic of our time that the left-wing writers of Superman comics had Superman announce a few years ago, "I intend to speak before the United Nations tomorrow and inform them that I am renouncing my American citizenship." When the writers of Superman were liberal, Superman was not only an American but one who fought for "Truth, justice, and the American way." But in his announcement, he explained that motto is "not enough anymore."

View of America: Liberals venerated America. Watch American films from the 1930s through the 1950s and you will be watching overtly patriotic, America-celebrating films -- virtually all produced, directed and acted in by liberals. Liberals well understand that America is imperfect, but they agree with a liberal icon named Abraham Lincoln that America is "the last best hope of earth."

To the left, America is essentially a racist, sexist, violent, homophobic, xenophobic and Islamophobic country. The left around the world loathe America, and it is hard to imagine why the American left would differ in this one way from fellow leftists around the world. Leftists often take offense at having their love of America doubted. But those left-wing descriptions of America are not the only reason to assume that the left has more contempt than love for America. The left's view of America was encapsulated in then-presidential candidate Barack Obama's statement in 2008. "We are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America," he said.

Now, if you were to meet a man who said that he wanted to fundamentally transform his wife, or a woman who said that about her husband, would you assume that either loved their spouse? Of course not.

Free speech: The difference between the left and liberals regarding free speech is as dramatic as the difference regarding race. No one was more committed than American liberals to the famous statement "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Liberals still are. But the left is leading the first nationwide suppression of free speech in American history -- from the universities to Google to almost every other institution and place of work. It claims to only oppose hate speech. But protecting the right of person A to say what person B deems objectionable is the entire point of free speech.

Western civilization: Liberals have a deep love of Western civilization. They taught it at virtually every university and celebrated its unique moral, ethical, philosophical, artistic, musical and literary achievements. No liberal would have joined the leftist Rev. Jesse Jackson in chanting at Stanford University: "Hey, hey. Ho, ho. Western civ has got to go." The most revered liberal in American history is probably former President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who frequently cited the need to protect not just Western civilization but Christian civilization. Yet leftists unanimously denounced President Donald Trump for his speech in Warsaw, Poland, in which he spoke of protecting Western civilization. They argued not only that Western civilization is not superior to any other civilization but also that it is no more than a euphemism for white supremacy.

Judaism and Christianity: Liberals knew and appreciated the Judeo-Christian roots of American civilization. They themselves went to church or synagogue, or at the very least appreciated that most of their fellow Americans did. The contempt that the left has -- and has always had -- for religion (except for Islam today) is not something with which a liberal would ever have identified.

If the left is not defeated, American and Western civilization will not survive. But the left will not be defeated until good liberals understand this and join the fight. Dear liberals: Conservatives are not your enemy. The left is.

https://townhall.com/columnists/denn...&newsletterad=

I disagree with a lot of what is written - but that's not why I posted this. I am concerned that we will never get anywhere when we seem to all be speaking a different version of English.
Thanks from McCoy

Last edited by imaginethat; September 15th, 2017 at 12:45 AM. Reason: shrunk pic
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Old September 12th, 2017, 06:03 AM   #2
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A lot of leftists claim to be liberal, but their either delusional, lying , or just plain wrong.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 06:06 AM   #3
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I have spent most of my adult life trying to figure out HOW I became a Liberal or Democrat or Lefty....or whatever you want to call me. AND I'm still not sure. As I've posted many times, everyone in my immediate family was/is a Republican--mostly moderate--but still.
AND not just Republicans--TEXAS Republicans and yes, there is a difference. I think my maternal grandmother was a Democrat, but she died many years ago so that's just my mother's spin.
So my question is how do we become WHAT we become politically?? My Christian faith HAS to be part of the equation. My profession certainly influenced me. But other than that?? I'd like to hear from others...and I'd like this to be a civil discussion.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 06:48 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tristanrobin View Post
I just read this article on "Townhall" website. The split/hair semantic division is, IMO, absurd (and, of course, because it's a conservative site, biased). It's no wonder that we can't discuss an issue - any issue when we are forced to contend with such semantic gymnastics.

Leftism Is Not Liberalism

What is the difference between a leftist and a liberal?

Answering this question is vital to understanding the crisis facing America and the West today. Yet few seem able to do it. I offer the following as a guide.

Here's the first thing to know: The two have almost nothing in common.

On the contrary, liberalism has far more in common with conservatism than it does with leftism. The left has appropriated the word "liberal" so effectively that almost everyone -- liberals, leftists and conservatives -- thinks they are synonymous.

But they aren't. Let's look at some important examples.

Race: This is perhaps the most obvious of the many moral differences between liberalism and leftism. The essence of the liberal position on race was that the color of one's skin is insignificant. To liberals of a generation ago, only racists believed that race is intrinsically significant. However, to the left, the notion that race is insignificant is itself racist. Thus, the University of California officially regards the statement "There is only one race, the human race" as racist. For that reason, liberals were passionately committed to racial integration. Liberals should be sickened by the existence of black dormitories and separate black graduations on university campuses.

Capitalism: Liberals have always been pro capitalism, recognizing it for what it is: the only economic means of lifting great numbers out of poverty. Liberals did often view government as able to play a bigger role in lifting people out of poverty than conservatives, but they were never opposed to capitalism, and they were never for socialism. Opposition to capitalism and advocacy of socialism are leftist values.

Nationalism: Liberals deeply believed in the nation-state, whether their nation was the United States, Great Britain or France. The left has always opposed nationalism because leftism is rooted in class solidarity, not national solidarity. The left has contempt for nationalism, seeing in it intellectual and moral primitivism at best, and the road to fascism at worst. Liberals always wanted to protect American sovereignty and borders. The notion of open borders would have struck a liberal as just as objectionable as it does a conservative. It is emblematic of our time that the left-wing writers of Superman comics had Superman announce a few years ago, "I intend to speak before the United Nations tomorrow and inform them that I am renouncing my American citizenship." When the writers of Superman were liberal, Superman was not only an American but one who fought for "Truth, justice, and the American way." But in his announcement, he explained that motto is "not enough anymore."

View of America: Liberals venerated America. Watch American films from the 1930s through the 1950s and you will be watching overtly patriotic, America-celebrating films -- virtually all produced, directed and acted in by liberals. Liberals well understand that America is imperfect, but they agree with a liberal icon named Abraham Lincoln that America is "the last best hope of earth."

To the left, America is essentially a racist, sexist, violent, homophobic, xenophobic and Islamophobic country. The left around the world loathe America, and it is hard to imagine why the American left would differ in this one way from fellow leftists around the world. Leftists often take offense at having their love of America doubted. But those left-wing descriptions of America are not the only reason to assume that the left has more contempt than love for America. The left's view of America was encapsulated in then-presidential candidate Barack Obama's statement in 2008. "We are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America," he said.

Now, if you were to meet a man who said that he wanted to fundamentally transform his wife, or a woman who said that about her husband, would you assume that either loved their spouse? Of course not.

Free speech: The difference between the left and liberals regarding free speech is as dramatic as the difference regarding race. No one was more committed than American liberals to the famous statement "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Liberals still are. But the left is leading the first nationwide suppression of free speech in American history -- from the universities to Google to almost every other institution and place of work. It claims to only oppose hate speech. But protecting the right of person A to say what person B deems objectionable is the entire point of free speech.

Western civilization: Liberals have a deep love of Western civilization. They taught it at virtually every university and celebrated its unique moral, ethical, philosophical, artistic, musical and literary achievements. No liberal would have joined the leftist Rev. Jesse Jackson in chanting at Stanford University: "Hey, hey. Ho, ho. Western civ has got to go." The most revered liberal in American history is probably former President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who frequently cited the need to protect not just Western civilization but Christian civilization. Yet leftists unanimously denounced President Donald Trump for his speech in Warsaw, Poland, in which he spoke of protecting Western civilization. They argued not only that Western civilization is not superior to any other civilization but also that it is no more than a euphemism for white supremacy.

Judaism and Christianity: Liberals knew and appreciated the Judeo-Christian roots of American civilization. They themselves went to church or synagogue, or at the very least appreciated that most of their fellow Americans did. The contempt that the left has -- and has always had -- for religion (except for Islam today) is not something with which a liberal would ever have identified.

If the left is not defeated, American and Western civilization will not survive. But the left will not be defeated until good liberals understand this and join the fight. Dear liberals: Conservatives are not your enemy. The left is.

https://townhall.com/columnists/denn...&newsletterad=

I disagree with a lot of what is written - but that's not why I posted this. I am concerned that we will never get anywhere when we seem to all be speaking a different version of English.
Hypocrisy or not coming from mere babe in the woods? : )

Last edited by imaginethat; September 15th, 2017 at 12:46 AM.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 06:51 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tristanrobin View Post
I just read this article on "Townhall" website. The split/hair semantic division is, IMO, absurd (and, of course, because it's a conservative site, biased). It's no wonder that we can't discuss an issue - any issue when we are forced to contend with such semantic gymnastics.

Leftism Is Not Liberalism

What is the difference between a leftist and a liberal?

Answering this question is vital to understanding the crisis facing America and the West today. Yet few seem able to do it. I offer the following as a guide.

Here's the first thing to know: The two have almost nothing in common.

On the contrary, liberalism has far more in common with conservatism than it does with leftism. The left has appropriated the word "liberal" so effectively that almost everyone -- liberals, leftists and conservatives -- thinks they are synonymous.

But they aren't. Let's look at some important examples.

Race: This is perhaps the most obvious of the many moral differences between liberalism and leftism. The essence of the liberal position on race was that the color of one's skin is insignificant. To liberals of a generation ago, only racists believed that race is intrinsically significant. However, to the left, the notion that race is insignificant is itself racist. Thus, the University of California officially regards the statement "There is only one race, the human race" as racist. For that reason, liberals were passionately committed to racial integration. Liberals should be sickened by the existence of black dormitories and separate black graduations on university campuses.

Capitalism: Liberals have always been pro capitalism, recognizing it for what it is: the only economic means of lifting great numbers out of poverty. Liberals did often view government as able to play a bigger role in lifting people out of poverty than conservatives, but they were never opposed to capitalism, and they were never for socialism. Opposition to capitalism and advocacy of socialism are leftist values.

Nationalism: Liberals deeply believed in the nation-state, whether their nation was the United States, Great Britain or France. The left has always opposed nationalism because leftism is rooted in class solidarity, not national solidarity. The left has contempt for nationalism, seeing in it intellectual and moral primitivism at best, and the road to fascism at worst. Liberals always wanted to protect American sovereignty and borders. The notion of open borders would have struck a liberal as just as objectionable as it does a conservative. It is emblematic of our time that the left-wing writers of Superman comics had Superman announce a few years ago, "I intend to speak before the United Nations tomorrow and inform them that I am renouncing my American citizenship." When the writers of Superman were liberal, Superman was not only an American but one who fought for "Truth, justice, and the American way." But in his announcement, he explained that motto is "not enough anymore."

View of America: Liberals venerated America. Watch American films from the 1930s through the 1950s and you will be watching overtly patriotic, America-celebrating films -- virtually all produced, directed and acted in by liberals. Liberals well understand that America is imperfect, but they agree with a liberal icon named Abraham Lincoln that America is "the last best hope of earth."

To the left, America is essentially a racist, sexist, violent, homophobic, xenophobic and Islamophobic country. The left around the world loathe America, and it is hard to imagine why the American left would differ in this one way from fellow leftists around the world. Leftists often take offense at having their love of America doubted. But those left-wing descriptions of America are not the only reason to assume that the left has more contempt than love for America. The left's view of America was encapsulated in then-presidential candidate Barack Obama's statement in 2008. "We are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America," he said.

Now, if you were to meet a man who said that he wanted to fundamentally transform his wife, or a woman who said that about her husband, would you assume that either loved their spouse? Of course not.

Free speech: The difference between the left and liberals regarding free speech is as dramatic as the difference regarding race. No one was more committed than American liberals to the famous statement "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Liberals still are. But the left is leading the first nationwide suppression of free speech in American history -- from the universities to Google to almost every other institution and place of work. It claims to only oppose hate speech. But protecting the right of person A to say what person B deems objectionable is the entire point of free speech.

Western civilization: Liberals have a deep love of Western civilization. They taught it at virtually every university and celebrated its unique moral, ethical, philosophical, artistic, musical and literary achievements. No liberal would have joined the leftist Rev. Jesse Jackson in chanting at Stanford University: "Hey, hey. Ho, ho. Western civ has got to go." The most revered liberal in American history is probably former President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who frequently cited the need to protect not just Western civilization but Christian civilization. Yet leftists unanimously denounced President Donald Trump for his speech in Warsaw, Poland, in which he spoke of protecting Western civilization. They argued not only that Western civilization is not superior to any other civilization but also that it is no more than a euphemism for white supremacy.

Judaism and Christianity: Liberals knew and appreciated the Judeo-Christian roots of American civilization. They themselves went to church or synagogue, or at the very least appreciated that most of their fellow Americans did. The contempt that the left has -- and has always had -- for religion (except for Islam today) is not something with which a liberal would ever have identified.

If the left is not defeated, American and Western civilization will not survive. But the left will not be defeated until good liberals understand this and join the fight. Dear liberals: Conservatives are not your enemy. The left is.

https://townhall.com/columnists/denn...&newsletterad=

I disagree with a lot of what is written - but that's not why I posted this. I am concerned that we will never get anywhere when we seem to all be speaking a different version of English.
Disagree. We speak the same language and we understand each other quite well. The problem, Imho, isn't semantics, but competing interests. A multitude of interests with split and quite varied goals. In brief, everything is fuzzily muddled right now, because everything that did make the US what it was is seemingly and irrevocably changing. For good or bad, I don't know.

To try and summarize I'm generalities, briefly my opinion, without mentioning the innumerable groups out there vying for the limited America pie:

The most prominent and vocal now is the extremes of both sides. But there are groups on either side, when interests are similar, sometimes sides with the extremes and a lot of times don't.

It's when the interests are roughly similar within groups, that's what people remember the most when the issue is at it's most shocking. We focus on the negative and never the boringly rational positive.

Disagreements amongst them is often seen as a sign of a split. But there was never anything to split that wasn't even conjoined in the first place.

In a word or two, we are here because we have stereotyped ourselves into narrow views and categorized all competing groups as similar to either corresponding side. When in fact, they are far more dissimilar than similar.

Last edited by imaginethat; September 15th, 2017 at 12:46 AM.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 09:07 AM   #6
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I have spent most of my adult life trying to figure out HOW I became a Liberal or Democrat or Lefty....or whatever you want to call me. AND I'm still not sure. As I've posted many times, everyone in my immediate family was/is a Republican--mostly moderate--but still.
AND not just Republicans--TEXAS Republicans and yes, there is a difference. I think my maternal grandmother was a Democrat, but she died many years ago so that's just my mother's spin.
So my question is how do we become WHAT we become politically?? My Christian faith HAS to be part of the equation. My profession certainly influenced me. But other than that?? I'd like to hear from others...and I'd like this to be a civil discussion.
You want to discuss why you remain a Democrat in the face of overwhelming evidence that the socialist views of the Democratic Party are being rejected? That is interesting. Maybe it's time for you to take stock of just what your supporting.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 09:21 AM   #7
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I started out quite right wing. When I was totally tied up in first my schooling and then my profession I never took the time to look seriously at politics or economics and was a firm believer in the capitalist lie. The simplistic analysis of Ayn Rand won out in a very cursory overview of the greater good for the greater number.

Then when I started interacting with a wider variety of people and had the opportunity to learn. And seeing first hand the damage that unregulated capitalism causes I, over about 10 years shifted.

To show you how bad it was, I used to believe what is now called trickle down. And that wealth inequality wasn't an issue and other simplistic economic things. And oh so obviously after the 2008 economic meltdown, we need not only environmental regulations, but financial and consumer protection regulations in place, enforced and violations harshly punished.

And even at my worst I was never a social conservative. What other people do, if it doesn't affect me or mine, is no business of mine, it is that simple.
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Old September 14th, 2017, 04:30 PM   #8
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I'm not a proud American and I have no reason to be.
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Old September 14th, 2017, 05:10 PM   #9
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I'm not a proud American and I have no reason to be.
IMO, you have just-cause. Your representatives (Black Caucus) have let you down. And it's not just the Black Caucus, the entire Democratic Party has let you down. Just as the RINO's have in the GOP. Power, money, and egocentrism has replaced meaningful representation. But, all in all, I'd say the Black community is getting the worst of it.
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Old September 14th, 2017, 05:30 PM   #10
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I have spent most of my adult life trying to figure out HOW I became a Liberal or Democrat or Lefty....or whatever you want to call me. AND I'm still not sure. As I've posted many times, everyone in my immediate family was/is a Republican--mostly moderate--but still.
AND not just Republicans--TEXAS Republicans and yes, there is a difference. I think my maternal grandmother was a Democrat, but she died many years ago so that's just my mother's spin.
So my question is how do we become WHAT we become politically?? My Christian faith HAS to be part of the equation. My profession certainly influenced me. But other than that?? I'd like to hear from others...and I'd like this to be a civil discussion.
I was always a sort of middle of the roader, somewhat right leaning. Some things very conservative (illegal immigration) some things very liberal (drugs and SEX !!!) But I mostly voted republican most of my life. As we are often reminded the Rupublicans were socially progressive. They freed the slaves and they pushed the civil rights act through, despite the Dixiecrats and their segregationist bullshit. They were pro business and fiscally conservative. Some times a little too much of those things but there was a balance. the GOP I grew up with would have supported gay rights and gay marriage. They would have supported removing racist statues (especially since most were erected by Democrats) Today's party bares no resemblance to the party I grew up with.

But a few years ago the GOP took this hard right turn. They absolutely got in bed with the preachers and evangelicals. I think old Barry Goldwater was right. They BELIEVE they're doing God's work and feel no need to compromise on anything at all. It's all or nothing. Win or go home. If they don't win, then they'll do everything in their power to disrupt the process until such time as they can take back control.

But as we see now, they have the whole government, and they are soooo fragmented to the point of being paralyzed. So incapable of moving an agenda that the President is cutting deals with the opposition.

I didn't leave the GOP, it left me !!!
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