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Old September 13th, 2017, 09:34 AM   #11
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How the fuck did Turkey flip off OUR sovereignty?
Don't forget his attack dogs wailing on peaceful protestors on American soil as Erdogan looked on from a short distance.

That's "the fuck" how.
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Old September 13th, 2017, 09:53 AM   #12
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"Erdogan believes he can play both ends against the middle. We'll see. Meanwhile, having an ally purchase arms, and quite sophisticated arms, from a, presumably, common opponent, that reeks."
Potentially.
But it's also a potential advantage, if NATO can obtain analytical access to the acquired equipment, and find potential flaws that could be exploited in battle.
Yep, I'd thought of that. Most likely, Erdogan will use the potential to inspect S-400 systems up close as bait in his play of both ends against the middle. Whether he'd actually allow it is definitely questionable. I'm confident he'd have to "promise" Putin that no such NATO inspection of Russian weaponry would be allowed.

The play in the shadows is which proposed gas pipeline from the ME to Europe will be built. ZeroHedge rarely is unbiased or even correct, but it sums up the shadow drama well here:
Turkeys Anadolu News Agency, though government-run, is providing remarkably clear and reliable diagrammatic descriptions of the current status of the U.S - and - fundamentalist - Sunni, versus Russia - and - Shia - and - NON - fundamentalist - Sunni, sides, in the current oil-and-gas war in the Middle East, for control over territory in Syria, for construction of oil-and-gas pipelines through Syria supplying fuel into the worlds largest energy-market: Europe. Russia is now the dominant supplier of both oil and gas, but its ally Iran is a Shiite gas-powerhouse that wants to share the market there, and Russia has no objection.

Qatar is a Sunni gas-powerhouse and wants to become the main supplier of gas there, and Saudi Arabia is a Sunni oil-powerhouse, which wants to become the major supplier of oil, but Saudi oil and Qatari gas would be pipelined through secular-controlled (Assad's) Syria, and this is why the U.S. and its fundamentalist-Sunni allies, the Sauds, and Qataris, are using Al Qaeda and other jihadists to conquer enough of a strip through Syria so that U.S. companies such as Halliburton will be able safely to place pipelines there, to be marketed in Europe by U.S. firms such as Exxon. Iran also wants to pipeline its gas through Syria, and this is one reason why Iran is defending Syrias government, against the U.S.-Saudi-Qatari-jihadist invasion, which is trying to overthrow and replace Assad.
The Oil-Gas War Over Syria (In 4 Maps) | Zero Hedge

Remember the little spat Qatar and Saudi Arabia had a few months back?

Saudi Dispute With Qatar Has 22-Year History Rooted in Gas
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Old September 13th, 2017, 10:45 AM   #13
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Well it, suffice it to say this Erdogan / Russian weapons deal is a near ideal recipe for intrigue.
What I can't figure out is, will it bring Turkey back to NATO, or push it further away.
Quote:
"The play in the shadows is which proposed gas pipeline from the ME to Europe will be built." it
Putin has already had a banquet from that crap sandwich.

In connection w/ dispute between Gazprom (Putin) and some interstitial Eastern European country Putin shut off the gas supply to Western Europe mid-Winter.
The Western Europeans didn't like it, and immediately began to seek alternative, more reliable sources.

Putin shot himself in the foot on that one.
I suspect Russia would either have to write into the contract a reliability clause, or slash their price to make the $savings worth the risk.
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"Remember the little spat Qatar and Saudi Arabia had a few months back?" it
No.
Embarrassing to acknowledge, but it seems age is taking more of a toll on me than I'd hoped.
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Old September 13th, 2017, 12:37 PM   #14
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ok
I understand all of that.
The error is:

Lord Acton is often paraphrased as saying:

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

BUT !!

It's rather more plausible that power attracts the corruptible.

That's fine.

You say:
"What a fool." "What a shame."

Beware your own subjective projection.

Some leaders like to amass greater power for its own sake.

Erdogan & Putin are two peas in a pod.

They're subordinating the benefit of their nations for self-gain.

It's as plain as the nose on Cyrano de Bergerac's face.

The allure of this power (to perpetrate group beheadings, etc) is unmistakable.

The leaders of ISIL for example were willing to die for the thrill. Many already have.
And that makes Putin, Erdogan and the ISIL boys fools, IMO.
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Old September 13th, 2017, 12:41 PM   #15
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re: Titan post #13. A BBC story a few days ago said that high up EU members were starting to say that the odds of Turkey being accepted into the EU was slim to none.
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Old September 13th, 2017, 12:44 PM   #16
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Erdogan thinks he is the Modern Caliph. While everyone is watching Iran and the Saudi's it is Erdogan and Israel that need to be watched.
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Old September 13th, 2017, 02:05 PM   #17
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RG #15

a) Interesting.

b) I hadn't read that.

c) The E.U. and NATO, two different things.

d) One of the main reasons the rest of the E.U. doesn't want Turkey in the E.U. is because the rule of membership is that of unfettered travel between member nations, the way it is between States in the U.S.

The obvious problem there is, Turkey being mainly Muslim.
All any Muslim would need to do to get into any E.U. member nation would be to by hook or crook get into Turkey.
That would turn Turkey into the Muslim gateway to the entire E.U.

I'm wondering whether the E.U. will begin to diversify into categories of membership.
That way, Turkey might join the E.U. for some mutual economic benefit, but not receive the travel benefit other E.U. members enjoy.

Following the U.K.'s Brexit vote, I've wondered whether only a partial U.K. withdrawal from the E.U. might result.
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Old September 17th, 2017, 12:14 PM   #18
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The S-400 systems are state of the art. This just doesn't feel right.
Turkey set to buy Russian missile defence system
Putin's adviser confirms agreement marking the NATO member's first major weapons purchase from Russia.


Turkey is set to buy Russian-owned missile defence systems, marking the NATO member's first major weapons purchase from Russia.

Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey's president, announced on Tuesday that "signatures have been made" for the acquisition of the S-400 surface-to-air missile defence equipment.

Anticipating potential concern among Turkey's fellow NATO members over the deal, Erdogan said Turkey would continue to "make the decisions about our own independence ourselves".

"We are obliged to take safety and security measures in order to defend our country Nobody has the right to discuss the Turkish republic's independence principles or independent decisions about its defence industry," he said.
More: Turkey set to buy Russian missile defence system | Turkey News | Al Jazeera
I guess Erdogan took that CIA attempt to overthrow him pretty hard!
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