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Old September 12th, 2017, 09:41 PM   #1
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NATO member Turkey set to buy Russian S-400 ground to air AA systems

The S-400 systems are state of the art. This just doesn't feel right.
Turkey set to buy Russian missile defence system
Putin's adviser confirms agreement marking the NATO member's first major weapons purchase from Russia.


Turkey is set to buy Russian-owned missile defence systems, marking the NATO member's first major weapons purchase from Russia.

Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey's president, announced on Tuesday that "signatures have been made" for the acquisition of the S-400 surface-to-air missile defence equipment.

Anticipating potential concern among Turkey's fellow NATO members over the deal, Erdogan said Turkey would continue to "make the decisions about our own independence ourselves".

"We are obliged to take safety and security measures in order to defend our country … Nobody has the right to discuss the Turkish republic's independence principles or independent decisions about its defence industry," he said.
More: Turkey set to buy Russian missile defence system | Turkey News | Al Jazeera
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Old September 12th, 2017, 09:50 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
The S-400 systems are state of the art. This just doesn't feel right.
Turkey set to buy Russian missile defence system
Putin's adviser confirms agreement marking the NATO member's first major weapons purchase from Russia.


Turkey is set to buy Russian-owned missile defence systems, marking the NATO member's first major weapons purchase from Russia.

Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey's president, announced on Tuesday that "signatures have been made" for the acquisition of the S-400 surface-to-air missile defence equipment.

Anticipating potential concern among Turkey's fellow NATO members over the deal, Erdogan said Turkey would continue to "make the decisions about our own independence ourselves".

"We are obliged to take safety and security measures in order to defend our country Nobody has the right to discuss the Turkish republic's independence principles or independent decisions about its defence industry," he said.
More: Turkey set to buy Russian missile defence system | Turkey News | Al Jazeera
Being an old missileman, I must ask what kind of navigation system does the S-400 use so I can say how to defeat it. If it uses proportional navigation then I recommend range gate stealing.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 10:18 PM   #3
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it #lead

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Wasn't Thomas Jefferson ambassador to Turkey?

The U.S. has long regarded Turkey as a vital necessity for friendship, due to geo-politics.

The NATO implications here are obvious & alarming.

Putin's choice, a marked preference for confronting the West rather than allying with it.

It'll be interesting to see where Turkey goes from here.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 10:19 PM   #4
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Erdogan is following in Putin's footsteps. What a fool. He has already turned what was the most secular Muslim country into another Islamic hate fest. And is rapidly making himself a dictator.

What a shame.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 10:54 PM   #5
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Erdogan is following in Putin's footsteps. What a fool. He has already turned what was the most secular Muslim country into another Islamic hate fest. And is rapidly making himself a dictator.

What a shame.
MichaelT from England regularly goes to Turkey on vacation and mostly to visit archeological sites. What does MichaelT have to say about Eragon?
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Old September 12th, 2017, 11:28 PM   #6
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Quote:
"Erdogan is following in Putin's footsteps. What a fool. He has already turned what was the most secular Muslim country into another Islamic hate fest. And is rapidly making himself a dictator.

What a shame." R #4
ok
I understand all of that.
The error is:
Quote:
What a fool.
Lord Acton is often paraphrased as saying:

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

BUT !!

It's rather more plausible that power attracts the corruptible.

That's fine.

You say:
"What a fool." "What a shame."

Beware your own subjective projection.

Some leaders like to amass greater power for its own sake.

Erdogan & Putin are two peas in a pod.

They're subordinating the benefit of their nations for self-gain.

It's as plain as the nose on Cyrano de Bergerac's face.

The allure of this power (to perpetrate group beheadings, etc) is unmistakable.

The leaders of ISIL for example were willing to die for the thrill. Many already have.
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Old September 13th, 2017, 07:46 AM   #7
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Sounds like Turkey can defend its self and the US wont have to keep spending tax dollars on it.

Brace for the Communist/neocon rebuttals. Strange to even use Communist/neocon terms together. But, wait its coming
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Old September 13th, 2017, 08:27 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by titan View Post
ok
I understand all of that.
The error is:

Lord Acton is often paraphrased as saying:

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

BUT !!

It's rather more plausible that power attracts the corruptible.

That's fine.

You say:
"What a fool." "What a shame."

Beware your own subjective projection.

Some leaders like to amass greater power for its own sake.

Erdogan & Putin are two peas in a pod.

They're subordinating the benefit of their nations for self-gain.

It's as plain as the nose on Cyrano de Bergerac's face.

The allure of this power (to perpetrate group beheadings, etc) is unmistakable.

The leaders of ISIL for example were willing to die for the thrill. Many already have.
Both are true: Power corrupts with absolute power corrupting absolutely, AND power attracts the corruptible. I'd never thought of the latter, but it's spot on.

One way or another, Putin will be in power until he dies. Most Russians know this and are comfortable with it. Ditto for Erdogan, although I'm unsure whether most Turks have grasped this reality.

Erdogan believes he can play both ends against the middle. We'll see. Meanwhile, having an ally purchase arms, and quite sophisticated arms, from a, presumably, common opponent, that reeks. The MF thinks he's all big and bad. Don't forget his attack dogs wailing on peaceful protestors on American soil as Erdogan looked on from a short distance.

The silence from the White House was deafening. Erdogan flipped off our sovereignty and Trump let him do it. Take that as a sign, and as tacit approval from our tough guy president.
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Old September 13th, 2017, 08:53 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
Both are true: Power corrupts with absolute power corrupting absolutely, AND power attracts the corruptible. I'd never thought of the latter, but it's spot on.

One way or another, Putin will be in power until he dies. Most Russians know this and are comfortable with it. Ditto for Erdogan, although I'm unsure whether most Turks have grasped this reality.

Erdogan believes he can play both ends against the middle. We'll see. Meanwhile, having an ally purchase arms, and quite sophisticated arms, from a, presumably, common opponent, that reeks. The MF thinks he's all big and bad. Don't forget his attack dogs wailing on peaceful protestors on American soil as Erdogan looked on from a short distance.

The silence from the White House was deafening. Erdogan flipped off our sovereignty and Trump let him do it. Take that as a sign, and as tacit approval from our tough guy president.
How the fuck did Turkey flip off OUR sovereignty?
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Old September 13th, 2017, 09:02 AM   #10
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Quote:
"Both are true: Power corrupts with absolute power corrupting absolutely, AND power attracts the corruptible." it #8
The next obvious question is, which of the two is the prevailing trend.

a) That ratio almost surely varies over time. But I'd be curious to know the mean.

b) I'm guessing wildly that the power-hungry don't seek power for potential.
I suspect they seek & amass power with intention of projecting it. That's why:
Quote:
"One way or another, Putin will be in power until he dies. Most Russians know this and are comfortable with it. Ditto for Erdogan, although I'm unsure whether most Turks have grasped this reality." it #8
is an issue.
Not who holds the power, but what that power is used for.
Quote:
"Erdogan believes he can play both ends against the middle. We'll see. Meanwhile, having an ally purchase arms, and quite sophisticated arms, from a, presumably, common opponent, that reeks."
Potentially.
But it's also a potential advantage, if NATO can obtain analytical access to the acquired equipment, and find potential flaws that could be exploited in battle.
Quote:
"Don't forget his attack dogs wailing on peaceful protestors on American soil as Erdogan looked on from a short distance." it
I had forgotten, though it was recent, earlier this Summer iirc.
Quote:
"The silence from the White House was deafening. Erdogan flipped off our sovereignty and Trump let him do it. Take that as a sign, and as tacit approval from our tough guy president." it
There's no disputing it.
I don't ascribe it to Trump treachery.
Instead I believe Trump has clue zero on such matters as diplomacy both internationally, and between legislative & exec.
Quote:
"Make your words soft and sweet. You never know when you have to eat them."
Prince Bandar bin Sultan / Saudi Ambassador to the U.S.
Trump may have many strengths. Diplomacy is not one of them.
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