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Old November 11th, 2017, 09:57 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Marcus Livius View Post
Why was trying to deal with Russia good then, and bad now? Other than partisan political posturing?

They really will not answer. Some even lose control.

I reckon that in the 1980's, when Reagan got tough with Russia, Pershing II's as an instance, these sad sacks took the side of the USSR.

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“The 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because the Cold War’s been over for 20 years"

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Old November 11th, 2017, 11:32 PM   #12
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I don't like him other than as a news celebrity that makes for conversation such as this one.

At another forum, I once spent a lot of effort to dispel from the mind of his worshipers they media generated myth that he was a Judo master.

Putin is a persona that is larger than life and intrudes our politics and mind more than it has to. Putin didn't become this sinister former KGB spy/killer recently. He always has been who he is. Why was trying to deal with Russia good then, and bad now? Other than partisan political posturing?
Because the son of a bitch wrecked Ukraine killing thousands of Ukrainians when he sent in Russian military right when Ukraine had all but defeated the Donbas rebels. He also Hitler-annexed Crimea and seized the majority of Ukraine's navy.. This was in 2014 after some effort had been expended to "normalize" relations. After those efforts, Putin spit in our face.

And btw, Putin used the people of eastern Ukraine. He initiated the hostilities, armed the "rebels," and sent in Russian armor and missiles. Years of war have devastated the region, and Putin hasn't done one damned thing to assist those who "assisted" him.

The Ukrainian currency went from less than 8 hryvnias to a dollar to at the worst point almost 35 to 1. Today it hovers around 27 to 1. That devaluation almost instantly turned Ukraine into a third-world nation, or worse really.

The SOB all but ended the dreams of Ukrainians to join the EU. Granted, I wonder why they thought that would be so great, other than making it possible to travel throughout Western Europe without visas.

I was in Ukraine in summer 2012 when Ukraine hosted the Euro 2012 soccer playoffs. Kiev's main street, Khreshchatyk street, was filled with people from all over Europe. The mood was high; the feel positive and uplifting. I got to experience Ukraine's high point before all the hopes and expectations were dashed.

That's what happened, and why trying to deal with Russia was good then and bad now.

Here's the bottom line. How does "normalizing" US/Russia relations benefit us? Between the two powers MAD is still in effect. What is it that we need from Russia? Vodka? Caviar? Weapon systems? Oil? Because, that's about all Russia has to offer to the world.

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Old November 11th, 2017, 11:40 PM   #13
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They really will not answer. Some even lose control.

I reckon that in the 1980's, when Reagan got tough with Russia, Pershing II's as an instance, these sad sacks took the side of the USSR.
What's your excuse for supporting Putin?

Why have you flipped into being a sad sack supporting Russia now?
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Old November 12th, 2017, 02:09 AM   #14
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beneficial for this country ..and the world..if Russia and the US developed more congenial relationships? Within the two nations, is there anyone or group that could bring these two huge military nations together to work toward and establish that "war" is no longer acceptable?
I wish I could send you USS Somers DDG-34 plan of the day for 31 May, 1972. Give me your email address and I will send it to you. The top of page two is a paragraph about Admiral of the Soviet Navy Gorbechv and Secretary of the Navy Warner having two meetings, the first in Washington DC and the second in Moscow. It is about preventing collisions at sea which means more than keeping warships from bumping into each other and about preventing war between the USSR and US.

edit: The first side of the POD I will not send because that is NGFS results from the previous two days and bragging.

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Old November 12th, 2017, 04:41 AM   #15
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beneficial for this country ..and the world..if Russia and the US developed more congenial relationships? Within the two nations, is there anyone or group that could bring these two huge military nations together to work toward and establish that "war" is no longer acceptable?
No, Russia cyberattacked this country in 2016 and is still cyberattacking this country in the run up to the 2018 midterms. Did we wish to be friends with Japan after Pearl Harbor ?

Also, Putin invaded the Crimea, kills political foes and reporters, sends missile technology to the right wing’s “evil” Iran and supports Little Kimmie in North Korea.

QUESTION: Was this meant to be a serious question ?
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Old November 12th, 2017, 05:05 AM   #16
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No, Russia cyberattacked this country in 2016 and is still cyberattacking this ciountry in the run up to the 2018 midterms. Did we wish to be friends with Japan after Pearl Harbor ?

Also, Putin invaded the Crimea, kills political foes and reporters, sends missile technology to the right wing’s “evil” Iran and supports Little Kimmie in North Korea.

QUESTION: Was this meant to be a serious question ?
This is a serious question which has to be adjudicated in the world court at the Hague by a jury of our peers.
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Old November 12th, 2017, 05:42 AM   #17
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beneficial for this country ..and the world..if Russia and the US developed more congenial relationships? Within the two nations, is there anyone or group that could bring these two huge military nations together to work toward and establish that "war" is no longer acceptable?


Russia and the U.S. haven't always been opponents. Prior to entering World War II, the United States gave the Soviet Union and other countries millions of dollars worth of weapons and other support for their fight against Nazi Germany. The two nations became allies in the liberation of Europe.

Mikhail Gorbachev lead a series of reforms which eventually lead to the dissolution of the Soviet empire into a variety of independent states. In 1991, Boris Yeltsin became the first democratically elected Russian president.
The change led to an overhaul of U.S. foreign and defense policy.

The end of the Cold War gave the United States and Russia new opportunities to cooperate, but with Putin's rise to power and the invasion of Georgia and Ukraine, the world (not just the U.S.) has Russia on their (for lack of a better word) shit list. Now, Russia has attacked our country via tech hacks, election diddling, and ego-driven Trump, who mistakenly thinks Putin LIKES HIM.

This issue is preeettty simple: Vlad is a former KGB agent who jails and murders his opponents. He mourns the former Soviet Union and wants to restore its power and influence. He is enraged by what he perceives as America’s disregard for post-Cold War Russia and has resolved to diminish our standing in the world in any way possible, which apparently NOW is via Donald Trump and our election process. Putin is a poisonous snake who can't be trusted. In addition, he partnered with Assad in hideous war crimes against civilians, protected the regime against UN resolutions condemning the use of barrel bombs and chemical weapons, and, quite clearly, tolerated the latest chemical atrocities.

Our sitting president has repeatedly discredited our legal and electoral system to advance Putin’s goals. Trump is a fool. Putin will chew him up and spit him out....before he knows what happened.
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Old November 12th, 2017, 06:26 AM   #18
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No, Russia cyberattacked this country in 2016 and is still cyberattacking this ciountry in the run up to the 2018 midterms. Did we wish to be friends with Japan after Pearl Harbor ?

Also, Putin invaded the Crimea, kills political foes and reporters, sends missile technology to the right wing’s “evil” Iran and supports Little Kimmie in North Korea.

QUESTION: Was this meant to be a serious question ?
Thanks. I left those points out of my list.

Yeah, the SOB supports Kimmy. Putin just upgraded Kimmy's internet connectivity.
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Old November 12th, 2017, 06:47 AM   #19
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beneficial for this country ..and the world..if Russia and the US developed more congenial relationships? Within the two nations, is there anyone or group that could bring these two huge military nations together to work toward and establish that "war" is no longer acceptable?
Suddenly RW Republicans are all flower children, handling out peace medals and crying "can't we all just get along?"

Funny how that happens right after Putin and Trump became BBF.
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Old November 12th, 2017, 11:21 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
Thanks. I left those points out of my list.

Yeah, the SOB supports Kimmy. Putin just upgraded Kimmy's internet connectivity.
Well, Lil' Kimmy needs that to be able to compete with the twitter-in-chief.
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