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Old November 24th, 2017, 02:12 PM   #1
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Economics, $inflation, the cost of living, advancing time, advancing technology

Economics, $inflation, the cost of living, advancing time, advancing technology

This month I bought a pen that fits in a shirt pocked, that's also an HD video camera. It cost $20.oo

Such product wouldn't have been available at any price a few decades ago.

Earlier today I bought a battery for my tractor. It cost $300.oo

I've never paid that much for one battery before.

True, it's a flat plate AGM. Some say it should last 3 times as long (which means it should out-last me).

Why should a battery that lasts 3 times as long cost 3 times as much?

Do you think the Fed is handling interest rates appropriately?

Are your household finances stable in today's environment?

Or is there a problem which congress isn't fixing, or making worse?

Or is it some other culprit? Technology?
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Old November 24th, 2017, 04:53 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by titan View Post
Economics, $inflation, the cost of living, advancing time, advancing technology

This month I bought a pen that fits in a shirt pocked, that's also an HD video camera. It cost $20.oo

Such product wouldn't have been available at any price a few decades ago.

Earlier today I bought a battery for my tractor. It cost $300.oo

I've never paid that much for one battery before.

True, it's a flat plate AGM. Some say it should last 3 times as long (which means it should out-last me).

Why should a battery that lasts 3 times as long cost 3 times as much?

Do you think the Fed is handling interest rates appropriately?

Are your household finances stable in today's environment?

Or is there a problem which congress isn't fixing, or making worse?

Or is it some other culprit? Technology?
A battery that lasts 3 times as long is worth more than three times as much.
You could buy 3 lead acid batteries, but with the AGM, you only have to change the battery once, saving you pulling the old battery, and lugging it back for the core deposit, and installing a new battery TWICE.
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Old November 24th, 2017, 11:11 PM   #3
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I know.
That was a substantial consideration in my purchase selection.

Another: my own age.
I'm 63.
So I asked myself:
which battery do I have to buy, so that it'll out-last me? (so I'll never have to change it again)

For precisely the reason you've articulated.

BUT !!

Generally I gather productivity gains should be causing prices to drift lower.

I haven't "done the math" on kW/hr battery capacity, from 1950 to present.

I'd LOVE to see that $cost over time graph. I doubt it's been plotted.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 10:53 AM   #4
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Tell me, how could Congress fix this?
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Old November 25th, 2017, 11:00 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by titan View Post
I know.
That was a substantial consideration in my purchase selection.

Another: my own age.
I'm 63.
So I asked myself:
which battery do I have to buy, so that it'll out-last me? (so I'll never have to change it again)

For precisely the reason you've articulated.

BUT !!

Generally I gather productivity gains should be causing prices to drift lower.

I haven't "done the math" on kW/hr battery capacity, from 1950 to present.

I'd LOVE to see that $cost over time graph. I doubt it's been plotted.
You know how a lot of outdoor equipment companies morphed into mainly outdoor clothing retailers?

Back in the 70s, companies like North Face made excellent equipment, and backed it with a lifetime warranty that was seldom used.

But what they did was put themselves out of business cause the stuff they made didn't wear out, or if it did it was repaired for free.

If this battery technology keeps improving, the next thing we know Interstate will be selling clothes too.
Thanks from titan
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Old November 25th, 2017, 11:11 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
You know how a lot of outdoor equipment companies morphed into mainly outdoor clothing retailers?

Back in the 70s, companies like North Face made excellent equipment, and backed it with a lifetime warranty that was seldom used.

But what they did was put themselves out of business cause the stuff they made didn't wear out, or if it did it was repaired for free.

If this battery technology keeps improving, the next thing we know Interstate will be selling clothes too.
I have joked in the past that if I were an alien invader wanting to take over the earth, the easiest way to ruin the world economy would be to become dictator and decree that everyone would have to wear the same uniform all their waking hours and that only about 5 models of vehicles could be produced, total.

Without the garment industry churning out new crap for each new fashion trend, and the automotive industry making a gazillion new models each more desirable than the last, the economy would crater and the world would fall apart.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 12:23 PM   #7
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Quote:
"If this battery technology keeps improving, the next thing we know Interstate will be selling clothes too." it #5
a) Thanks. I didn't know that reliability history.

b) Interesting you mention Interstate.
I've had good luck with them in the past.
Seems to me, decades ago, their storage system was centralized, so that rather than each dealer having an inventory, the inventory was kept at one location:

SO THAT:

When you bought an Interstate battery, it was a fresh one, hadn't lost half its useful life to sitting around the store room for a few years.

Interstate has an Internet presence.
The model I wanted was 31P-AGM7.

I called several dealers.
Not one of them could sell me one.
Not one of them could even tell me the price.
And the Internet site doesn't mention any price.

Compounding that,
Interstate has 6 different model lines.

Yet there is absolute ZERO information on what the differences are between them; other than some have a warranty that's a year longer than others, etc.
No information on which model is best for which application.
No information on which model(s) are affordable, and which not.

I spent over an hour researching Interstate.
In the end, it was Wal~Mart that had the marketing s a v v y to actually close the deal.

Delivery scheduled.

BTW
There's an awful lot of self-sabotage going on out there.
Body-cams up to $600.oo that are self-sabotaged either by hideous design, or in the case of GoPro Hero5 Session, the unit itself seems OK, but it evidently isn't available with an attachment for clothing.

It's insane!
They're asking an order of magnitude more for it than other units, and I'd eagerly $pay it!
But I have no use for a body-cam that I can't clip to my shirt pocket.

These people are IDIOTS !!!
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Old November 25th, 2017, 12:39 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by titan View Post
a) Thanks. I didn't know that reliability history.

b) Interesting you mention Interstate.
I've had good luck with them in the past.
Seems to me, decades ago, their storage system was centralized, so that rather than each dealer having an inventory, the inventory was kept at one location:

SO THAT:

When you bought an Interstate battery, it was a fresh one, hadn't lost half its useful life to sitting around the store room for a few years.

Interstate has an Internet presence.
The model I wanted was 31P-AGM7.

I called several dealers.
Not one of them could sell me one.
Not one of them could even tell me the price.
And the Internet site doesn't mention any price.

Compounding that,
Interstate has 6 different model lines.

Yet there is absolute ZERO information on what the differences are between them; other than some have a warranty that's a year longer than others, etc.
No information on which model is best for which application.
No information on which model(s) are affordable, and which not.

I spent over an hour researching Interstate.
In the end, it was Wal~Mart that had the marketing s a v v y to actually close the deal.

<snip>
I just put "31P-AGM7" into Mx. Google's input field and got:

https://www.interstatebatteries.com/...ategoryid=true

Last edited by RNG; November 25th, 2017 at 12:42 PM.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 01:31 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by titan View Post
Economics, $inflation, the cost of living, advancing time, advancing technology

This month I bought a pen that fits in a shirt pocked, that's also an HD video camera. It cost $20.oo

Such product wouldn't have been available at any price a few decades ago.

Earlier today I bought a battery for my tractor. It cost $300.oo

I've never paid that much for one battery before.

True, it's a flat plate AGM. Some say it should last 3 times as long (which means it should out-last me).

Why should a battery that lasts 3 times as long cost 3 times as much?

Do you think the Fed is handling interest rates appropriately?

Are your household finances stable in today's environment?

Or is there a problem which congress isn't fixing, or making worse?

Or is it some other culprit? Technology?
One word of caution. If you ever have to charge that AGM battery, don't use the highest charging rate if you have anything more than a standard home version battery charger. IE if you have a big 50 or 60 amp charger.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 01:52 PM   #10
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RG #8
Thanks much.

a) Too late. I already ordered the apparently better, less $expensive battery.

b) I found no way to that information for Interstate's initial / home page.
I checked every option I could find.
NOTHING provided the information I sought.

B #9
1) OK
2) Why not? *

These AGM's generally tout low internal voltage leakage (self-discharge), and rapid discharge rate.

Further, when I researched it long ago, Optima's literature warned against high amperage recharge, but added, if it's in automotive application being charged by an alternator, don't worry about it. It'll handle whatever the alternator delivers.

I'm hoping this Vmax AGM will solve my tractor battery problems forever.
Before buying this one, the one this Vmax will replace was purchased on basis of the maximum size the tractor battery compartment would accommodate.
Near as I can tell, it only lasted 6 years.

I'll expect 18 years from Vmax.

* As you seem to be interested:
when I was building my Optima-based UPS, I tried to find the most efficient 120 VDC > 12 VDC charger I could find.
But the literature I read on it flailed huge warning flags.
DO NOT use any 3 stage charger on a system that can go under load while charging.

The literature warned, a 3 stage charger can "cook the system" for misinterpreting a load as a discharged condition.

I use a 2 stage charger.
The only problem I've had with it low voltage, caused by corrosion at the connections.
A little emery cloth and some WD-40 and we're back in bidness.
I forget, but I think my UPS charger is about 40 Amps.
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