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Old December 5th, 2017, 05:46 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by TNVolunteer73 View Post
No.. not an opinion, nothing personal either.

Then the federal government needs to be paying the state rent for the land.
Educate yourself. It will help you to not sound stupid.

Do you know what PILT stands for? I'm sure you don't. PILT means payments in lieu of taxes.

The federal government makes payments to local governments for land under its jurisdiction.

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"Payments in Lieu of Taxes" (PILT) are Federal payments to local governments that help offset losses in property taxes due to non-taxable Federal lands within their boundaries. The original law is Public Law 94-565, dated October 20, 1976. This law was rewritten and amended by Public Law 97-258 on September 13, 1982 and codified at Chapter 69, Title 31 of the United States Code. The law recognizes the inability of local governments to collect property taxes on Federally-owned land can create a financial impact.
What a joke is being played on the gullible and uninformed. If federal lands were "returned to the people," not only would states and local governments lose their PILT payments, they would incur the expense of managing, maintaining, and enforcing sustainable land use the lands "returned to the people."

Trump just handed Utah citizens a liability.
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Old December 5th, 2017, 05:59 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by caconservative View Post
Is 2/3rds of the land insignificant to the needs of the population of Utah? Is that your opinion, or the opinion of the citizens of Utah?
Every poll taken in Utah shows majority support for preserving Utah's wild lands. Some people can look at this and see the beauty.



Some see a landscape that lacks a spider web of roads, "holding ponds" for fracking waste, open pit mining, radioactive mine tailings, and storage tanks.

In other words, some are more inspired by the love of money than they are by passing down wild lands to our progeny.
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Old December 5th, 2017, 06:08 PM   #33
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You sound like a young man who once was speaking to a group and said...ideally everyone would live condos, in the city, and ....all....other land would be for their recreation. Someone asked, where will their food come from...reply was we will import it. Seemed like an odd statement, since he was there to giver "advice" to ranchers on how to best use their water.
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Old December 5th, 2017, 06:29 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by TNVolunteer73 View Post
No the land belongs to the state.
No it doesn't.

The General Revision Act of 1891
Prior to the passage of the General Revision Act of 1891, previous major land policy initiatives had allowed for a growing monopolization of western lands on the behalf of wealthy individuals and corporations. The Timber Culture Act of 1873 was passed to foster the growth of timber in arid regions by making available 160 free acres of land to anybody willing to plant trees upon 40 acres of it.[4] Initiatives such as the Desert Land Act of 1877 were also passed, giving 640 acres of land at $1.25 per acre to anybody willing to irrigate the land within three years.[5] These conditional land contracts allowed groups like stock ranchers, timber/mining companies and land speculators to acquire vast sums of land for little cost or consequence.

The Jeffersonian idea of small scale land ownership would not apply given these circumstances as monopolization of private lands was occurring at a rapid pace, often spanning 67,000 to million acres per purchase....
Under what authority did Trump slash Bears Ears by 80 percent and Grand Staircase by 50 percent?
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Old December 5th, 2017, 06:38 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by goodpen View Post
You sound like a young man who once was speaking to a group and said...ideally everyone would live condos, in the city, and ....all....other land would be for their recreation. Someone asked, where will their food come from...reply was we will import it. Seemed like an odd statement, since he was there to giver "advice" to ranchers on how to best use their water.
That's a perfectly ridiculous comment, totally anecdotal.

How much wheat do you figure you could get out of this land?



Not much. Semi-arid to arid Bears Ears and Grand Staircase Escalante are not farmland. They're not even good ranch land. Grazing trashes semi-arid land, turning it into sagebrush-dominant terrain - cattle won't eat sagebrush - with cattle shitting and pissing in scarce water resources.

Talk of what you know, please.
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Last edited by imaginethat; December 5th, 2017 at 08:15 PM.
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Old December 5th, 2017, 06:49 PM   #36
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Hmm, The Homestead act gave 160 acres, Timber Culture, 40 acres and $1.25 per acre for 640 acres,,,all between 1873 &1877. So the 640 acres cost over $600 in 1877...quite a bit of money back then. How are those acreages "Vast sums of land", acquired by your groups, bad ranchers, miners, and speculators.
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Old December 5th, 2017, 07:11 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by TNVolunteer73 View Post
So the land should be UNDER STATE not federal ownership.
It's not, the federal government owns the land, not the state of Utah.
You want the Federal government to just give away an asset?

Are you familiar with the concept of property ownership?
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Old December 5th, 2017, 09:06 PM   #38
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Hmm, The Homestead act gave 160 acres, Timber Culture, 40 acres and $1.25 per acre for 640 acres,,,all between 1873 &1877. So the 640 acres cost over $600 in 1877...quite a bit of money back then. How are those acreages "Vast sums of land", acquired by your groups, bad ranchers, miners, and speculators.
My groups?

I'll tell you how. They'd rape the land, mining it leaving their toxic waste for someone else's children to clean up. They'd put in "roads" without proper drainage creating rutted mini-canyons in an area of little rainfall, but when rain falls it often downpours.

They'd graze the hell out of the land, and then move on and trash out another spot. While hiking in the Kolob Canyons area of Zion National Park, I came across a fence line separating a privately owned inholding - probably grazed for 100 years or more - from the park itself. On Zion side, were many varieties of grass, forbs, wildflowers, and yes, some sagebrush here and there. On the other side, compacted soil supporting wall-to-wall sagebrush, 90 percent or more of the vegetation.

I never have seen a better example of how cows turned the west into sagebrush country, but they did.

They would clear-cut vast stretches of forest, and leave benuded hillsides. When spring runoff rolled around, serious land erosion would occur, water running off over soft soils, eventually clogging streams. About six miles out of town is half a grove of Douglas Fir. The other half was logged almost 130 years ago. The trees did not reseed themselves leaving a forest with a straight-edged border, where the fence line ran at the time.

In addition unmanaged hunting/fishing decimated species like the delicious but stupid pronghorns.

Nine times outta ten, turn people loose on beautiful land and they'll figure out a way to trash it without even trying hard. People fuck up land.

But really, that's not so. Actually, only a small percentage of folks do the trashing, but they are ubiquitous. They will sooner than you might think leave some used toilet paper sticking out of some half-buried shit.

That, and after many generations, these guys still haven't figured it out. Tin cans and metal in general don't burn in a campfire.

Just wait. If this travesty goes through, and it probably won't, but if it does, and leases are signed, and they're right in the middle of some of the most spectacular scenes on earth, you and I won't be welcome on the property.
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Old December 5th, 2017, 09:18 PM   #39
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It's not, the federal government owns the land, not the state of Utah.
You want the Federal government to just give away an asset?

Are you familiar with the concept of property ownership?
Of course the feds should just give away land to the states, land that they stole from the states.

You're not suggesting that the states should pay the feds for the land that the feds stole from the states, are you?

**sarcasm alert**

That's exactly the fire that Trump fans. On an internet forum, he'd be a flamer, but a civilized flamer. It's his style. Flaming. Freaking 24/7. It's tiresome like gusty winds can be.
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Old December 6th, 2017, 04:56 AM   #40
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Triumphing a victory for multinational corporations. A bit suspicious, isn't it?
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