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Old January 9th, 2018, 12:42 PM   #321
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Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
So, if submission is the "right" word, the word used in the Bible YOU believe in then USE it and STOP saying that is REALLY means commitment. Don't be a coward about it IF that is what you believe!
Personally, I think that any woman who puts up with that 'submit' crap should be committed.

Just not in the sense Sensible means.
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Old January 9th, 2018, 01:45 PM   #322
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Wow, that's a big subject I wouldn't know where to start...but the fear, self-loathing, selfishness that afflicts modern conservatism all goes back to a theology that I've always wondered why it had any followers! I guess things were different back then, but if I was told over and over again-you're going to hell no matter what you do..unless you'r part of that tiny group of elect(which you're almost certainly not!)I would be inclined to say 'the hell with it!' But, maybe that sense of misery and impending doom explains the nihilistic qualities and lack of regard for others that many followers seem to take on. If anyone checks the Five Points of Calvinism, the busting down of a kid's self-esteem and self-confidence almost mirrors the typical bootcamp brainwashing strategy every military has applied since then.
Oh my goodness, I can not believe you said that so well! You must have been inspired by a god. Nihilistic you say? That is a pretty big concept that we may not know well enough?

Quote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism
Nihilism (/ˈnaɪ.ɪlɪzəm/ or /ˈniː.ɪlɪzəm/; from the Latin nihil, nothing) is a philosophical doctrine that suggests the lack of belief in one or more reputedly meaningful aspects of life. Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism, which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value.[1] Moral nihilists assert that there is no inherent morality, and that accepted moral values are abstractly contrived. Nihilism may also take epistemological, ontological, or metaphysical forms, meaning respectively that, in some aspect, knowledge is not possible, or reality does not actually exist.
That is a perfect explanation of why that theology is not compatible with democracy. I wish I had thought of that myself. Like I vaguely understood that but was not working with the concept of nihilism. I just understood democracy is assuming there are values and together we can determine what they are and we can manifest them and we can be honorable and live with dignity. A whole different belief and value system than Christianity.

To me, nihilism is the anti-Christ.

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I'm fine with reposting, but even though we've vacationed in Cuba three times over the past 25 years or so, I wouldn't call myself an expert, but I have had a closer look at Cuba than what's found at the resorts for Canadian and Euro tourists. The first time we went, everyone was friendly and it felt like a much safer place for an outsider than the typical Latin American resort with guards armed with automatic weapons! I know we were watched closely and our 'guides' and scuba instructors had to at least be informants based on the wide-ranging questions they asked. After getting some pushback about life in wealthier capitalist countries like Canada and the US, I could tell we were watched less closely when we were away from the resorts on our 2nd and 3rd trips. I wanted to get this out of the way before the usual rightwing posse here brings up the subject, but as I see it: Cuba is 90 miles off the coast of the wealthiest and most powerful military empire in the world. So, their anxieties and surveillance seem justified considering that the empire wants to help them in the same way they've turned Brazil, Argentian, Chile, Columbia, Honduras into capitalist paradise!
I am afraid I cannot be rational about what you said because I am too flooded with emotion. Without emotion, isn't it logical if you treat someone like the enemy they will act the enemy? Who in blazes wants to be treated as the US has treated Cuba! Our economic war on communist and others has lead to the starvation and the preventable deaths of millions. This economic warfare goes with Christianity as a main weapon in the war against non-Christians, forcing them to convert or be deprived trade and economic growth.

Ruhollah Khomeini in his speech on November 5, 1979 to describe the United States, referred to the US as Satan (our word) or the great evil (the concept). This was before the Iran hostage crisis and justified opposing US imperialism. The following propaganda against nations resisting US imperialism, and in general, our ignorance of what our own nation is doing around the world, on top of Billy Graham doing a Christmas show telling us God wants our young to serve in the war against Iraq, is unconscionable.

The nihilism that has gone with the theology has left us in a moral void filled by capitalist ambition while the sheep turn their hard earned money over to the Military Industrial Complex that Bin Laden attacked. Bin Laden did not attack the US but very specifically attacked the Military Industrial Complex that we support with our tax dollars, and our ignorance of what we do is not tolerable! Does anyone want to argue these points?

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I think that's how Keynes missed his mark also. He was a capitalist, but a capitalist who had enough awareness to see what unbridled capitalism had done to America from 1880 to the 30's and wanted limits and controls on the boom and bust cycles.
For sure we need a better understanding of the booms and bust and why our economy is improving at this moment because for a lack of any other shared values, we are voting for the people we think improve our economy, and if he is a person who does not read and brags about not thinking too much, but is a strong tyrant, we are happy?! The leaders of the Military Industrial Complex can so easily take advantage of our ignorance, especially if the Evangelists explain the intent of the Military Industrialist Complex is the will of God. I assure you, those who are behind this are very aware of what they are doing and the best strategy and they absolutely are manipulating the media and the Christian Right.

I am sorry Sensible we have good reasons for getting our backs up when someone puts his faith in the theology and not in humanity and reason.

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About feminism: something changed from the time it all started and was called The Women's Liberation Movement compared to what it turned into under the generic placeholder of Feminism today. Women's Lib was like other liberation movements that exploded during the 60's and was focused on solidarity with those other liberation causes. That's why it was such a threat that the governing authorities wanted to coopt and take control of..as they did with the black liberation and other struggles of those left behind in the post-war global economic boom. Worth noting that the most prominent feminists like Gloria Steinem admitted many years later to being a CIA informant. Why? And why was the CIA involved in a domestic social cause?
I was unaware of Gloria Steinem being a CIA informant, but knowing how involved they were with Martin Luther King and the Black movement of course, that makes sense. Wow what a book the answer to your question would make! Hey, gang, can work together on this? Need a thread specifically for answering left to right's question. Why was the CIA involved in domestic causes? Why has a united front devolved into divide and conquer?

Can we go back to nihilism and the end of public schools preparing us for democracy by preparing us for independent thinking, and transmitting a culture to unite us and make us strong, and why Trump, a most unJesus like person, appeals to Christians?


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Since I've already mentioned I just can't get into Breaking Bad for reasons I'm not totally sure of, I should point out that I did take a great interest in the first couple of seasons of Mad Men...which early on placed a lot of the focus on the work commercial advertising industry, and the fast profits they started making when Madison Avenue firms started hiring psychology grads to shape their marketing campaigns...changing the focus from the product to directly attacking the self-esteem of the prospective customer. Back in the 70's, when there seemed to be a lot more information available than today, I picked up a couple of books by former ad execs(Jerry Mander being one of them..still alive and still writing and trying to inform the public) who gave a breakdown of how much print and TV advertising had switched its focus to the themes of sex and death. Most people would be shocked by the notion that reminding people of death can motivate a buyer, but the advertisers spent millions using overt symbols and even trying out subliminal messaging to see if that would work. Mander has always blamed the rise in mental illness, depression and anxiety disorders in America primarily on TV advertising...pretty hard to say he's wrong!
That is an extremely interesting idea! For a very short time I worked for the advertising industry as one of the people who tricked TV viewers into watching a TV show for the purpose of finding out how they reacted to the commercials. When I realized how unethical the job was, I stopped doing the job. I have absolutely no doubt that this research is about controlling people. That it could lead to the increase in mental problems and social breakdown is a frightening possibility we should explore.

Anyone into making this forum a highly valuable forum that attracts the best minds and has real political power? Instead of just a playground for idiots who enjoy bashing each other like The Three Stooges? Whoops, I always knew there was a good reason for keep women pregnant a barefoot. Teach them to read and give them a book to read, and they go to a war against the Military Industrial Complex and those who exploit humanity for their own gain. Shut those women up and put them in their place beneath the man. Just read your Bible and listen to Billy Graham and the other Evangelist who protect the Military Industrial Complex as good Christians protected the monarchies of old and fought the holy wars that were not so holy. Sorry Sensible, I grew up believing it was wrong to talk about religion, and then I saw how Christianity is used and we have to end this. Jesus would want you to.

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I'm not an economist either! A lot of the best information on the subject of banking and currency manipulation, I found in a book titled "Web of Debt" by Ellen H. Brown of the Public Banking Institute Web of Debt - How Banks And The Federal Reserve Are Bankrupting The Planet... The first chapter of Web of Debt goes through a brief history of how modern banking arose from the goldsmithing trade in medieval Europe. It seems the goldsmiths..being the richest tradesmen in town and having the richest clientele, were also the ones in greatest need of having an expensive secure safe to deposit valuables in overnight. Since gold and even silver coins were very heavy to carry around and made the traveller more vulnerable to highway robbery, they started receiving gold and silver notes guaranteed to be reimbursed with either gold or silver on request of the holder. This in effect is how paper currencies really took off. But long before monetarists started getting all lathered up about gold standards and full reserve banking, these goldsmiths started realizing they could write up many times more gold notes than they actually had on reserve in their safes...so full reserve banking has always been a pipedream, whether Ron Paul fans want to admit it or not!
Don't worry, we print "In God we trust" on our paper money and God will take care of us. Moving along, I think we seriously need to rethink our economic order and if it needs radical changes. I also detest economics because the theories ignore finite reality. We need a separate thread for economics. How about moving everything you said about economics to its own thread and let us handle the subject intelligently?
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Old January 9th, 2018, 01:54 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by catus felis View Post
Personally, I think that any woman who puts up with that 'submit' crap should be committed.

Just not in the sense Sensible means.
I think you should read the book and take another look what you think. Sometimes our perspective is distorted and more information enlightens us and improves our judgment. You might be missing the power of being feminine the wrong assumption that something is wrong with being feminine.

I bring this up because I think the taboo on being feminine feeds the Military Industrial Complex.

However, your play on the word "committed" deserves applause.

Last edited by Athena; January 9th, 2018 at 01:56 PM.
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Old January 9th, 2018, 01:56 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by catus felis View Post
There's certainly a great deal less fighting and arguing when it's already agreed that one person gets the final say.

I'm single so I always get the final say.
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Old January 9th, 2018, 05:28 PM   #325
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Did you catch the part about listening to it for 50 years??..I am a very tolerant person....But after 50 years even the most tolerant are starting to realize they are being made a fool of....Our society is being destroyed by identity politics and everybody is a victim of something and the victims will never be satisfied no matter what you do.....Sorry......
I think we agree that we all have created ourselves as victims, and at the same time, this sense of being victims seems validated by our reality.

I see a lot of hurting people here and elsewhere. I have observed these people have taken to disrespecting one another and creating a very unsafe place. I place where it isn't safe to reveal our true selves, or to let down our guard and I have been told the owner of the forum thinks this leads to stimulating discussions and that the moderator is reluctant to enforce the rules that were designed for more civil behavior. It is mistaking the excite of the kill, for the happiness of which Jefferson wrote when he wrote of the pursuit of happiness. And a complete loss of our understanding of virtues and the principles of our democracy.

Left to right, has very interesting things to about how we got here. I think we can benefit from exploring the possible truth of what left to right has to say.

My argument always is that education can make a huge, huge difference! The more I study philosophy and history, the less my financial poverty and grief for what I lost, bothers me. My son gave me a sign saying "I started with nothing and I have most of it left". I think that is very funny. Outwardly I do not have much to show for my life, but in my head, I am rich with knowledge and I experience the happiness of which Jefferson wrote.
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Old January 9th, 2018, 11:32 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by Athena View Post
Oh my goodness, I can not believe you said that so well! You must have been inspired by a god. Nihilistic you say? That is a pretty big concept that we may not know well enough?

That is a perfect explanation of why that theology is not compatible with democracy. I wish I had thought of that myself. Like I vaguely understood that but was not working with the concept of nihilism. I just understood democracy is assuming there are values and together we can determine what they are and we can manifest them and we can be honorable and live with dignity. A whole different belief and value system than Christianity.
I agree. A functional democracy requires people who have a strong social ethic/not individualists just out trying to grab all they can for themselves. I can't consider modern America to be a democracy today...if it ever was one. Not in an era of pay-to-play politics where it's turning into billionaire vs billionaire. And as some social activists have pointed out in recent years: you need a free and open media providing information to the people to have informed voters needed to keep a democratic process functioning. That was the whole point behind supporting the 4th Estate when America began as a nation and facilitated the proliferation of as many newspapers as possible, even providing them with the option of free mail delivery of their newspapers anywhere in the US.

But, in an era of media concentration- where six megacorporations control 90% of the TV stations, radio and newspapers, a few wealthy interests broadcast the news and information they consider important through their multimillionaire mouthpieces...who also are too rich to be connected with the struggles of average citizens. And the internet we thought would save us from the oligarchy is turning into a realm of even more restrictive monopolies which are using the "fake news" tag to bury independent media that doesn't follow their objectives.


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I am afraid I cannot be rational about what you said because I am too flooded with emotion. Without emotion, isn't it logical if you treat someone like the enemy they will act the enemy? Who in blazes wants to be treated as the US has treated Cuba! Our economic war on communist and others has lead to the starvation and the preventable deaths of millions. This economic warfare goes with Christianity as a main weapon in the war against non-Christians, forcing them to convert or be deprived trade and economic growth.

Ruhollah Khomeini in his speech on November 5, 1979 to describe the United States, referred to the US as Satan (our word) or the great evil (the concept). This was before the Iran hostage crisis and justified opposing US imperialism. The following propaganda against nations resisting US imperialism, and in general, our ignorance of what our own nation is doing around the world, on top of Billy Graham doing a Christmas show telling us God wants our young to serve in the war against Iraq, is unconscionable.
After a transition back from two income to one income family forced us to leave the suburbs for an old city neighborhood with a large immigrant population, one of the benefits(besides getting out of the suburbs) was that many people who've come to Canada from Latin America, Africa and Asia can tell you about how the US and western allies support the worst local governments and impoverish the lives of average people...leading many young people to just want to leave and try to find a better life elsewhere than remain in countries where the economic policies are set by bankers living thousands of miles away.
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The nihilism that has gone with the theology has left us in a moral void filled by capitalist ambition while the sheep turn their hard earned money over to the Military Industrial Complex that Bin Laden attacked. Bin Laden did not attack the US but very specifically attacked the Military Industrial Complex that we support with our tax dollars, and our ignorance of what we do is not tolerable! Does anyone want to argue these points?
I guess Bin Laden was looking for revenge against the forces that used him for their own purposes. How many "freedom fighters" since then have turned into 'terrorist threats' that need to be destroyed?

All the bitching you're going to find in these forums and all over the internet about radical Islamists, never get around to mentioning the point that likely every single one of the Islamist causes from the Muslim Brotherhood through to Al Qaeda and ISIS have been groomed by the British and later the American Empire as part of their strategies to control the Middle East!

The biggest black mark on American foreign policy has long been its prediliction for cozying up to dictators and despots, whether they're fascists like Franco and his acolytes in South America or Islamofascists. The last thing an empire can allow is for local people to control how their own government and decide how to live their lives! And that's the #1 reason why overthrowing communism in Cuba has always been the highest priority for the CIA.
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I am sorry Sensible we have good reasons for getting our backs up when someone puts his faith in the theology and not in humanity and reason.
Fundamentalists can't usually function without rule-based divine command theologies.
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I was unaware of Gloria Steinem being a CIA informant, but knowing how involved they were with Martin Luther King and the Black movement of course, that makes sense. Wow what a book the answer to your question would make! Hey, gang, can work together on this? Need a thread specifically for answering left to right's question. Why was the CIA involved in domestic causes? Why has a united front devolved into divide and conquer?
From her Wikipedia page:
Quote:
CIA ties[edit]

In May 1975, Redstockings, a radical feminist group, published a report Steinem and others put together on the Vienna Youth Festival and its attendees for the Independent Research Service.[96][97] Though she acknowledged having worked for the CIA-financed foundation in the late 1950s and early 1960s in interviews given to the New York Times and Washington Post in 1967 in the wake of the Ramparts magazine CIA exposures (nearly two years before Steinem attended her first Redstockings or feminist meeting), Steinem in 1975 denied any continuing involvement.[98]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloria_Steinem#CIA_ties
There's a lot of other stuff that of course cannot be independently verified and Steinem denies, but it fits the security state MO of infiltrating and usually disrupting movements the state considers threatening to their objectives.
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That is an extremely interesting idea! For a very short time I worked for the advertising industry as one of the people who tricked TV viewers into watching a TV show for the purpose of finding out how they reacted to the commercials. When I realized how unethical the job was, I stopped doing the job. I have absolutely no doubt that this research is about controlling people. That it could lead to the increase in mental problems and social breakdown is a frightening possibility we should explore.
Not quite the same thing..but it reminds me of how I felt early in my working life when I took a job in poultry slaughter and processing factory. The stink of the place stuck with me for life and turned me off eating chicken entirely. Chickens are considered stupid and their lives of no consequence, but even before the chicken processing turned into the monstrosity it is today with hybrid chickens who can't function as normal creatures...only to produce cheap white meat, I had enough and job or no job, I wanted nothing more to do with it.
With advertising, we can see how much marketing keeps driving up product demand by warping people's thinking. The net effect is profligate waste as people buy all kinds of crap they don't even need because they're trying to fill some inner need because of their anxieties.
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Don't worry, we print "In God we trust" on our paper money and God will take care of us. Moving along, I think we seriously need to rethink our economic order and if it needs radical changes. I also detest economics because the theories ignore finite reality. We need a separate thread for economics. How about moving everything you said about economics to its own thread and let us handle the subject intelligently?
I think the main problem with our economic order is that economic theory is treated as a science and separated from other important aspects of life. The big one being that all of our human economies and their economic theories about how to run them, have to work within the limits of a Natural economy: our civilizations depend on the renewable and non-renewable resources plus the ecological systems needed to recycle biological wastes. These aren't subjects discussed by economists, but they should be, since none of their economic models are going to find a way to restore economic growth if nature has already decided that we-collectively have already grown beyond the limits nature can provide.
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Old January 9th, 2018, 11:37 PM   #327
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Or surrendered?

Have you read this book? I'm thinking about downloading it.

For science.






https://www.amazon.com/Surrendered-W...rrendered+wife
Looks like a pile of patronizing bullshit based on the Amazon page! So, what happens after the working wife "surrenders" all control of homelife to her husband...just like bibilically mandated, and he still ignores her?
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Old January 9th, 2018, 11:46 PM   #328
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That books looks very interesting! I see a feminism I can follow, rising, and it is not the feminism that was the subject of the OP.

I think you have found an area of agreement with Sensible and things are beginning to look much better. The moral revolution that many of us want maybe manifesting as the flowers in spring that come without our help.
I recall seeing a similar pile of crap called "The Total Woman" widely promoted by its author back in the 70's. The old fashioned christian patriarchs try all kinds of different angles to get their message across that women need to stay home and keep making babies and their husbands are the local dictator: head of the house. And on the larger scale...they believe a return to patriarchy will fix our problems of modernity.

My own historical view looks back further and finds that most paleo to neolithic cultures were relatively egalitarian until the first warfaring patriarchs started invading settlements and towns four to five thousand years ago. That's traditional values and the beginning of history for the fundamentalists/ but from what I see looking at books on archaeology and anthropology, it was the beginning of the end!
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Old January 10th, 2018, 07:53 AM   #329
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I think you should read the book and take another look what you think. Sometimes our perspective is distorted and more information enlightens us and improves our judgment. You might be missing the power of being feminine the wrong assumption that something is wrong with being feminine.

I bring this up because I think the taboo on being feminine feeds the Military Industrial Complex.

However, your play on the word "committed" deserves applause.
I read the book when it was first published. I have no objection to being feminine, I just don't agree that it means acting like a subservient child. Marriage, to my mind, is a partnership. Such a disparity between the powers of spouses as Ms. Doyle advocates is not so much a partnership as a relationship between master and trapped employee.

Also, having to deal with a man whose ego is as fragile as a soap bubble would drive me to insanity. Seriously, the only way I could deal, on a daily basis, with a man that insecure in his masculinity would be to be medicated to the point that I would be capable of nothing more than staring off into space while drooling into my lap.

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Old January 10th, 2018, 08:45 AM   #330
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I read the book when it was first published. I have no objection to being feminine, I just don't agree that it means acting like a subservient child. Marriage, to my mind, is a partnership. Such a disparity between the powers of spouses as Ms. Doyle advocates is not so much a partnership as a relationship between master and trapped employee.

Also, having to deal with a man whose ego is as fragile as a soap bubble would drive me to insanity. Seriously, the only way I could deal, on a daily basis, with a man that insecure in his masculinity would be to be medicated to the point that I would be capable of nothing more than staring off into space while drooling into my lap.

There doesn't seem to be similar advice for men about how to be a better husband out there..unless I've missed them. And online advice for men is mostly accusing women of emasculating men. So the advice boils down to be a bigger asshole. Seems being feminine has already carried a lot implicit baggage with it over the millenia.
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