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Old January 12th, 2018, 02:02 PM   #261
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Wrong charge

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Originally Posted by hoosier88
Yah. The problem is, the controlling law in the US is Roe v. Wade. That's the definition to work with - & that definition is of a person, in the legal sense. A non-viable fetus is not a person, & therefore the abortion of a non-viable fetus is not murder.

Everything else is just dressing on the stage.
Man charged with murdering fetus.

I can bring a lot of these if you like.

Clarksville man charged with murdering girlfriend and fetus
The keyword is abortion. The various state statutes that allow charging death of a fetus are just that - state statutes. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feticide

"In the U.S., most crimes of violence are covered by state law, not federal law. Thirty-eight states currently recognize the "unborn child" (the term usually used) or fetus as a homicide victim, and twenty-three (23) of those states apply this principle throughout the period of pre-natal development.[2] These laws do not apply to legally induced abortions. Federal and state courts have consistently held that these laws do not contradict the U.S. Supreme Court's rulings on abortion."

(My emphasis - more @ the URL)

So yah, you can cite all of these laws & incidents you like - but they have nothing to do with abortion.
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Last edited by imaginethat; January 12th, 2018 at 04:00 PM.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 02:06 PM   #262
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I have no children. Never did. I have owned realestate for more than 30 years. Every year the local country and city make me pay taxes, most of which goes to the local school board. In other words, the state takes my money and uses it to educate OTHER PEOPLE'S children.

On one hand it could be argued that an educated population is good for society. On the other hand could I not argue that since I receive no direct benefit I should at some point, if I remain childless (I'm in my later 50s so very likely) get a refund ??

What I find even more objectionable is that churches can not only build HUGE monuments to their greed, vanity, pride and wealth, (a church that size certainly has nothing to do with God or Jesus) they get to do so TAX free. Within 10 miles of my house there is probably close to a billion dollars worth of property with CHURCHES sitting on it.

Worse is the fact they can open businesses that compete with you and I and still pay no taxes.

THE worst is the fact that those same six flags over Jesus can actually apply for FEDERAL and/or state funds to run their faith based charities !!!!!

Yet SCOTUS has ruled, as late as last year 7-2, that this is all perfectly legal. They also ruled, back during the Bush administration, that the individual tax payer has no say in the spending of his tax dollars, beyond deciding who to elect to office.

I'm like you. I think abortions should be free to anyone that wants one. Just for purely practical reasons. Abortions cost less than 18 years of welfare, section 8, food stamps and WIC. In many cases LONGER than 18 years as they tend to have children of their own at fairly young ages.

100%

I go back and forth on the education one w/ people all of the time but IMO now than ever if you dont have kids you shouldn't pay for schools. Now days the state is just taking on more and more parental responsibility of the parents. So many people have kids send them to daycare for the 1st few years and then off to school. There is no way that the decline of the the quality of people in our society is not directly related to that.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 02:13 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by hoosier88 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoosier88
Yah. The problem is, the controlling law in the US is Roe v. Wade. That's the definition to work with - & that definition is of a person, in the legal sense. A non-viable fetus is not a person, & therefore the abortion of a non-viable fetus is not murder.

Everything else is just dressing on the stage.



The keyword is abortion. The various state statutes that allow charging death of a fetus are just that - state statutes. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feticide

"In the U.S., most crimes of violence are covered by state law, not federal law. Thirty-eight states currently recognize the "unborn child" (the term usually used) or fetus as a homicide victim, and twenty-three (23) of those states apply this principle throughout the period of pre-natal development.[2] These laws do not apply to legally induced abortions. Federal and state courts have consistently held that these laws do not contradict the U.S. Supreme Court's rulings on abortion."

(My emphasis - more @ the URL)

So yah, you can cite all of these laws & incidents you like - but they have nothing to do with abortion.
Where did I mentioned abortion?
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Old January 12th, 2018, 02:19 PM   #264
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Call the question

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Where did I mentioned abortion?
This whole thread seems to be about abortion. & I assumed that you were bringing up the feticide charge as a way of dancing around the regulation of abortion in Roe v. Wade. If that wasn't your intent - Why are you bringing up the feticide topic?
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Old January 12th, 2018, 02:22 PM   #265
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This whole thread seems to be about abortion. & I assumed that you were bringing up the feticide charge as a way of dancing around the regulation of abortion in Roe v. Wade. If that wasn't your intent - Why are you bringing up the feticide topic?
The debate I am involved in is in regards as to when a fetus is considered human. As such, I have brought links to medical professionals saying it is upon fertilization, and textbook definitions of a "fetus" that is described as "human". Others have argued a fetus isn't human, but have failed miserably to bring any science to back that up. Opinion is all they have.

I have said nothing about abortion.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 02:25 PM   #266
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What's your solution to that conundrum?
Completely remove all involvement of the federal government both financially and legally and place all oversight in the hands of the states
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Old January 12th, 2018, 02:36 PM   #267
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Completely remove all involvement of the federal government both financially and legally and place all oversight in the hands of the states
So you want to trade one statist institution for another ??

How about we remove government, fed, state or local, all together ?? Beyond establishing safety standards for doctors and medical facilities, WHY does the government even have a say ??
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Old January 12th, 2018, 02:44 PM   #268
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The reason why I "avoid the point" is I've been on this merrygoround many, many times before, and everything resets back to the same 'killing unborn babies' objection no matter what evidence is offered that a zygote is just a collection of rapidly dividing cells...only different from random cells in the sense that it is the result of a newly combined strand of DNA from a male and female. Embryoes...not much different...still no brain development...looks interchangeable with an embryo of any other mammal and reptile species. Fetuses...this is where all the antiabortion arguments focus on in their 'unborn' babies rhetoric, and even until late stage development ....after 20 weeks, the developing brain still does not have the thalamacortical nerve connections necessary to enable a conscious perception of touch or pain. Does a 30 week fetus have conscious awareness? No, not even a newborn baby's brain isn't developed enough to provide conscious awareness. The big difference between before and after birth is the newborn is not dependent on the mother's body to survive. Others can take over and care for the child from there on.

And that brings us to the issue of personal autonomy...which I heard is a big deal for libertarians! Do we have obligations to contingent life, and lose some or all of our personal freedoms for the welfare of a creature that needs us to survive?

Back in 1971, University of Colorado Ethicist - Judith Jarvis Thompson wrote a "Defense of Abortion," that likely weighed in on the Supreme Court decision on Roe v Wade back then. Her defense contains three thought problems that don't even weigh in on the question of whether it's 'life' or not. The assumption in the first example: The Violinist..is that this is an adult who you wake up in hospital to find attached directly by tubes to your body, and hospital staff inform you that they need you to stay in that bed next to 'the violinist' to save his life...something you and you alone are able to do. Do you do it? Judith Jarvis Thomson: A Defense of Abortion


And is this a reasonable request to make of an individual? Would a libertarian do as he was told or pull out the tubes and walk out of the hospital? [B] And, does the libertarian woman put up with the crowd trying to tell her to keep going through 9 months of pregnancy...threatening her and other women with prosecution and imprisonment for child endangerment if she has a slip and fall or even a car accident which results in a miscarriage...add that shit to the mix and it's pretty damn clear to me that this issue isn't raised by conservative theocons out of concern for babies!
Their demands go way beyond funding of abortion, and let's remember that most Democrats caved on this issue anyway!
Well, i have to ask then what is your point in posting any of this?


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I have to ask: don't libertarians believe in individual liberties? Or is that just men's liberties?
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Those that believe that it is a human in utero believe that it has rights.

Its a catch 22 argument and the general consensus is to remove the state from the equation
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Old January 12th, 2018, 02:48 PM   #269
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The inside skinny

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The debate I am involved in is in regards as to when a fetus is considered human. As such, I have brought links to medical professionals saying it is upon fertilization, and textbook definitions of a "fetus" that is described as "human". Others have argued a fetus isn't human, but have failed miserably to bring any science to back that up. Opinion is all they have.

I have said nothing about abortion.
OK. In the abortion setting in the US, whether a fetus is human or no doesn't count for anything. As I recall, the Supreme Court hardly took any medical, biological nor scientific testimony when they were deciding Roe v. Wade. They relied more upon precedent & normal court procedure - but you can look @ the law & see for yourself.

The Roe argument is that a non-viable fetus isn't a legal person - & that's what the ruling turns on.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 02:51 PM   #270
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OK. In the abortion setting in the US, whether a fetus is human or no doesn't count for anything. As I recall, the Supreme Court hardly took any medical, biological nor scientific testimony when they were deciding Roe v. Wade. They relied more upon precedent & normal court procedure - but you can look @ the law & see for yourself.

The Roe argument is that a non-viable fetus isn't a legal person - & that's what the ruling turns on.
I don't care about Roe v Wade. I don't waste my time trying to argue on that.
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