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Old January 12th, 2018, 03:01 PM   #271
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Beg to differ

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Originally Posted by Sabcat View Post
Those that believe that it is a human in utero believe that it has rights.

Its a catch 22 argument and the general consensus is to remove the state from the equation
Nope.

" ... 63 percent of white Catholics say Roe v. Wade should not be overturned. These trends are particularly strong among millennials. In this cohort, which reached young adulthood in 2000, 68 percent favor same-sex marriage and 56 percent say abortion should be legal in all or most cases.4"

(My emphasis - from Pew Research Center - "For Young Adults, the Ideal Marriage", 2013; "Roe v. Wade at 40", 2013; "Millennials in Adulthood", 2014)

So - not a Catch-22, & the general consensus is the status quo.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 03:36 PM   #272
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So you want to trade one statist institution for another ??

How about we remove government, fed, state or local, all together ?? Beyond establishing safety standards for doctors and medical facilities, WHY does the government even have a say ??
Of course i would ultimately prefer that i just think that it would be more pragmatic to go state by state much like the weed.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 03:40 PM   #273
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Nope.

" ... 63 percent of white Catholics say Roe v. Wade should not be overturned. These trends are particularly strong among millennials. In this cohort, which reached young adulthood in 2000, 68 percent favor same-sex marriage and 56 percent say abortion should be legal in all or most cases.4"

(My emphasis - from Pew Research Center - "For Young Adults, the Ideal Marriage", 2013; "Roe v. Wade at 40", 2013; "Millennials in Adulthood", 2014)

So - not a Catch-22, & the general consensus is the status quo.
Every poll since Roe has shown the same thing. Some of the sub points vary from year to year, but THE main question remains fairly consistent.

The anti-abortion crowd made a lot of noise a couple of years ago because for the first time since Roe, more than 50% of those polled said they considered themselves pro-life.

However, the last question is THE most important one.

The question is, should abortion be completely outlawed ??

The LOWEST percentage to say NO was 79%. Some years it's been as high as 91%.

So there it is. While about 35% say they don't mind "some restrictions", the simple truth is, THE VAST MAJORITY of people in this country want abortion to be kept safe and legal. 70% want it with few restrictions.

These politicians that are always trying to pass these draconian anti-abortion laws really are pandering to very small but vocal MINORITY.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 03:42 PM   #274
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Nope.

" ... 63 percent of white Catholics say Roe v. Wade should not be overturned. These trends are particularly strong among millennials. In this cohort, which reached young adulthood in 2000, 68 percent favor same-sex marriage and 56 percent say abortion should be legal in all or most cases.4"

(My emphasis - from Pew Research Center - "For Young Adults, the Ideal Marriage", 2013; "Roe v. Wade at 40", 2013; "Millennials in Adulthood", 2014)

So - not a Catch-22, & the general consensus is the status quo.
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I have to ask: don't libertarians believe in individual liberties? Or is that just men's liberties?
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Originally Posted by Sabcat View Post
Those that believe that it is a human in utero believe that it has rights.

Its a catch 22 argument and the general consensus is to remove the state from the equation
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Old January 12th, 2018, 04:01 PM   #275
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Of course i would ultimately prefer that i just think that it would be more pragmatic to go state by state much like the weed.
Well my issue is, I don't trust most state government any more than the feds. In some case even less. They seem much more subject to whim and acting capriciously.

Here's my other issue. I am a resident of the state of Tennessee. BUT, I am a CITIZEN of the United States. If there is a right, protected under the constitution, then that right should apply in every state. My rights should not change because I crossed a river, or simply stepped over an imaginary line drawn on the ground.

Marriage and abortion are both very good examples of places that NO government should have the right to interfere. However since they've chosen to do so, then the laws should be equal across the board.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 04:22 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by imaginethat
What's your solution to that conundrum?
Completely remove all involvement of the federal government both financially and legally and place all oversight in the hands of the states
Well, that's cool.

Can you imagine the border between a pro-life and pro-choice state? Border guards checking papers. A woman crossing from a pro-life to a pro-choice state having to provide documentation that she's not pregnant. Or, pregnant women being denied passage.

"God's people" suing "Satan's people" claiming damage to their women from the satanic laws in place next door.

Yes, I believe this would happen.

Next up, states that hold referendums on whether their citizens should be taxed for the feds nefarious wars of choice.

It'd get intense. It might be better to just have a civil war over it and become like, say, Iraq.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 05:01 PM   #277
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Well, that's cool.

Can you imagine the border between a pro-life and pro-choice state? Border guards checking papers. A woman crossing from a pro-life to a pro-choice state having to provide documentation that she's not pregnant. Or, pregnant women being denied passage.

"God's people" suing "Satan's people" claiming damage to their women from the satanic laws in place next door.

Yes, I believe this would happen.

Next up, states that hold referendums on whether their citizens should be taxed for the feds nefarious wars of choice.

It'd get intense. It might be better to just have a civil war over it and become like, say, Iraq.
You mean like Ireland and the UK ?? A few years ago a young girl had been raped and was pregnant. Abortion is completely prohibited in Ireland. They would not let her leave the country for fear that she would seek an abortion.

Not all that long ago there was a case in Ireland where the fetus had DIED. Naturally it was causing the mother to become increasingly septic. They would NOT remove the dead fetus and the poor woman DIED. Never understood why the husband didn't insist on "taking her home to die", then at least try to make a run for Northern Ireland where they could have obtained a D&C.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 07:34 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by Sabcat View Post
Of course i would ultimately prefer that i just think that it would be more pragmatic to go state by state much like the weed.
Women have a constitutional right to choose.
So you want to go state by state...

So, the same with guns? State by State?

How about religion? State by State?

Speech? State by State?

Where do you draw the line?
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Old January 12th, 2018, 07:50 PM   #279
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Women have a constitutional right to choose.
So you want to go state by state...

So, the same with guns? State by State?

How about religion? State by State?

Speech? State by State?

Where do you draw the line?

Good job booger. Way to not understand the argument yet again.


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Old January 12th, 2018, 07:54 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
Well, that's cool.

Can you imagine the border between a pro-life and pro-choice state? Border guards checking papers. A woman crossing from a pro-life to a pro-choice state having to provide documentation that she's not pregnant. Or, pregnant women being denied passage.

"God's people" suing "Satan's people" claiming damage to their women from the satanic laws in place next door.

Yes, I believe this would happen.

Next up, states that hold referendums on whether their citizens should be taxed for the feds nefarious wars of choice.

It'd get intense. It might be better to just have a civil war over it and become like, say, Iraq.

Quite possibly. But i guess i would hope that if one state were to become increasingly authoritarian people and businesses would just move across the boarders, killing it.
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