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Old January 15th, 2018, 05:44 AM   #371
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Actually, you did. Unless, of course, you are laboring under the impression that the legality of abortion has something to do with the ability to abort.
No, I didn't. You need to learn to read.
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Old January 15th, 2018, 05:55 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
Relax. I'm not yelling at you.

The better system? I already posted it: a notarized pre-penetration contract. It's a ridiculous idea, but then again so is the idea of coerced fatherhood. And btw, to what law are you referring?

Please don't lecture me, which is what you're doing. This is a discussion board. We can discuss whether a law is fair or not. You've not made any case that "the law" is fair. You admonish me to "stop moralizing." You just keep repeating "it's the law." Let's assume it is.

It's wrong. Do you honestly believe that in your "150 mph autonomous car driving from NYC to Boston world," "the future you can't fight" as you characterize it, that "a law" so barbaric as enslaving an unwilling unmarried father will stand? No, and hell no.

When people get a little distance from the old ways, which were indeed unfair to women, the urge to punish males will diminish, or at least they should and in this instance I have confidence human beings will change the damned laws to which you referred.

Birth control and as a very last option abortion have made it is so that no child has to be born into circumstances that don't favor the child, and being born to a single mom who's depending on an enslaved man for child support is not only not ideal, it's one of life's situations that really sucks.

In your world you've traded forcing a woman to bear an unwanted child with forcing a man to support an unwanted child. Zero sum gain, imo. Doesn't work for me. If I was a young man today engaging in sex in an uncommitted relationship, I'd assume it's a given that neither of us wanted a pregnancy to "bring us together" to raise a child.

But maybe I'm naive, thus the notarized pre-penetration contract to protect myself from those who think like you.

What laws btw?
So when you go out on the town, do you bring a lawyer?
"hey baby, can I buy you a drink? But first, I'll need you to read this, and initial it here, and here, and here, then sign and date it here, then I'll need to see some ID, OK, now do you swear that you are signing this of your own free will and have not been coerced ?, Great!, now let my friend here stamp and sign it, ok ,this is your copy, my attorney has my copy, and we can head for a motel, if you are so inclined..."



With regards to child support, the state has an interest, since it's the state that pays a great deal towards the care of children in single parent households. If the father can be identified, the state will pursue the father, to recover any state monies spent on the child in question.
Are you suggesting that taxpayers should pick up the bill?
Even when the father is known?

And here is what I said, a person has the final decision on matters that involve that person's body.
If a man chooses to ejaculate, that's his decision, and he has to face the results of that decision.
If a woman chooses to abort that result, he's free and clear, if she chooses to bring it to term, that's her decision, because it's her body, but it's still his child, and his financial obligation.

Well, lets agree, that's how it should be handled in the absence of a notarized pre-penetration agreement.

Now supposing there is a notarized pre penetration agreement, and the single mother finds herself in need of assistance from the state?

Maybe in addition to the pre-penetration agreement, you should delay sex until a special act of the legislature exempts you from liability?
Have fun, don't do anything I wouldn't do.....
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Old January 15th, 2018, 06:14 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by guy39 View Post
Damn. I am not even sure if I am that extreme, but its good to see you step in a different direction. Interesting points you make
I owe no allegiance to any political position. Politicians in general use us for their pleasure. We're routinely screwed without a kiss and have been, either for many decades or for ever; take your pick.

The abortion issue is one of the powers that be's top-of-the-list ways of pitting us against each other. The pro-life vs. pro-choice debate has racked up huge success. No issue has been as successful in generating the enmity both camps hold towards each other. No issue has better engendered the conviction that the other side isn't merely wrong. They're evil.

The pro-lifers position is understandable, but the idea that they should be capable of imposing it through the force of law upon every female in the country in every instance defines both tyranny and haughty high-headedness. As I've noted before, until government requires pro-lifers to submit to the god of abortion, my conservative brothers and sisters need to tend to their own beliefs and refrain from abortion in their lives.

I reject their saying that we don't want our tax dollars going to fund anyone's abortion. The federal government engages in all manner of activities I don't support, but I'm not advocating for my tax dollars being withheld from them.

Compromise is the foundation stone of a constitutionally limited democratic republic. You take the good with the bad, and you count your blessings whenever the sanctity of your unalienable rights remains intact or mostly so ... in your own life.

The other side, the "P***y Über Alles" side, that believes its position is rightfully imposed upon every male also defines tyranny and haughty high-headedness. If a pro-choicer stands for a woman's right to choose, then fine. Practice it in your own affairs. Of course, laws should be in place to protect a mother and child from delinquent fathers if the pair has been in anything resembling a committed relationship.

But if the miracle of conception occurred as an unintended consequence of a night of drunken, unprotected sex, do the right thing lady: end this pregnancy. If somehow you always pictured a night of drunken, unprotected sex as the gateway to motherhood, but failed to mention this to your drunken lover in your drunken state, and your drunken lover when sober says, sorry ma'am, I don't want to have any children with you - it was never my intention.

And if the mom-to-be returns that this is my dream come true. I cannot end this beautiful beginning, then good on her. She's again exercised her woman's right to choose, only, this is her decision and her responsibility alone. When only two people are involved, the majority vote is 2-0, not 1-1.

However, most all of what I'm saying will fall upon deaf ears, and the battle for the moral high ground will continue, and each side will look at the other side as evil, and the damned politicians who count on our hating and fighting with each other to keep our attention off of their sorry asses will get their wish, and....

...not a damned thing will change.
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Last edited by imaginethat; January 15th, 2018 at 06:19 AM.
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Old January 15th, 2018, 06:22 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by BubbaJones
THAT doesn't answer my question !!!! What do YOU think happens to the soul ??
That soul goes to heaven!
Yep, and if the pregnancy resulted in a birth, in your view the odds would be stacked against the soul going to heaven.

Insanity.
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Old January 15th, 2018, 06:24 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Sensible View Post
...The abortion industry owes women something much more substantial than coat hanger pendants and pink hats. They owe us the facts, even if that means their house of cards comes tumbling down.
The noble, higher ground position that feels so superior, so good.

Insanity.
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Old January 15th, 2018, 06:26 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by Libertarian Guy View Post
No, I didn't. You need to learn to read.
You need to learn to follow a thought through to its logical conclusion.


Let us pretend that we outlaw abortion nationwide. Does that stop abortion?

No. It simply stops safe abortions for poor women.

It does not stop unsafe abortions. As a matter of fact, it creates a market for them.

Now, take a man who refuses to support his living, breathing child right now. Do you honestly think that this man is suddenly going to step up to the plate simply because the woman could not have a safe abortion?


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Old January 15th, 2018, 06:29 AM   #377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
I owe no allegiance to any political position. Politicians in general use us for their pleasure. We're routinely screwed without a kiss and have been, either for many decades or for ever; take your pick.

The abortion issue is one of the powers that be's top-of-the-list ways of pitting us against each other. The pro-life vs. pro-choice debate has racked up huge success. No issue has been as successful in generating the enmity both camps hold towards each other. No issue has better engendered the conviction that the other side isn't merely wrong. They're evil.

The pro-lifers position is understandable, but the idea that they should be capable of imposing it through the force of law upon every female in the country in every instance defines both tyranny and haughty high-headedness. As I've noted before, until government requires pro-lifers to submit to the god of abortion, my conservative brothers and sisters need to tend to their own beliefs and refrain from abortion in their lives.

I reject their saying that we don't want our tax dollars going to fund anyone's abortion. The federal government engages in all manner of activities I don't support, but I'm not advocating for my tax dollars being withheld from them.

Compromise is the foundation stone of a constitutionally limited democratic republic. You take the good with the bad, and you count your blessings whenever the sanctity of your unalienable rights remains intact or mostly so ... in your own life.

The other side, the "P***y Über Alles" side, that believes its position is rightfully imposed upon every male also defines tyranny and haughty high-headedness. If a pro-choicer stands for a woman's right to choose, then fine. Practice it in your own affairs. Of course, laws should be in place to protect a mother and child from delinquent fathers if the pair has been in anything resembling a committed relationship.

But if the miracle of conception occurred as an unintended consequence of a night of drunken, unprotected sex, do the right thing lady: end this pregnancy. If somehow you always pictured a night of drunken, unprotected sex as the gateway to motherhood, but failed to mention this to your drunken lover in your drunken state, and your drunken lover when sober says, sorry ma'am, I don't want to have any children with you - it was never my intention.

And if the mom-to-be returns that this is my dream come true. I cannot end this beautiful beginning, then good on her. She's again exercised her woman's right to choose, only, this is her decision and her responsibility alone. When only two people are involved, the majority vote is 2-0, not 1-1.

However, most all of what I'm saying will fall upon deaf ears, and the battle for the moral high ground will continue, and each side will look at the other side as evil, and the damned politicians who count on our hating and fighting with each other to keep our attention off of their sorry asses will get their wish, and....

...not a damned thing will change.
So if the woman puts unknown next to "Name of Father" on the BC.
She can still live with her loving man, he can still raise his children, but she gets a nice check, every month, courtesy of the taxpayer.
And he's just visiting.

Sorry, as a taxpayer, If I have paid for 18 years towards the upkeep of your mistake, and now DNA has made it clear that it was your mistake, pay up, with interest.
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Old January 15th, 2018, 06:29 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by catus felis View Post
You need to learn to follow a thought through to its logical conclusion.


Let us pretend that we outlaw abortion nationwide. Does that stop abortion?

No. It simply stops safe abortions for poor women.

It does not stop unsafe abortions. As a matter of fact, it creates a market for them.

Now, take a man who refuses to support his living, breathing child right now. Do you honestly think that this man is suddenly going to step up to the plate simply because the woman could not have a safe abortion?


I never said anything about outlawing or stopping abortions. You need to learn to read.
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Old January 15th, 2018, 06:38 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Libertarian Guy View Post
I never said anything about outlawing or stopping abortions. You need to learn to read.
Your post..#296


If men have nothing whatsoever to do with decisions regarding children after conception, you must agree that they can't be held financially liable for any child born due to the choice made by the woman to have a child, right?


Unless you are crediting women with the power to turn back time, that is about a womans right to choose.
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Old January 15th, 2018, 06:40 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by catus felis View Post
Your post..#296


If men have nothing whatsoever to do with decisions regarding children after conception, you must agree that they can't be held financially liable for any child born due to the choice made by the woman to have a child, right?


Unless you are crediting women with the power to turn back time, that is about a womans right to choose.
Nope. It is about a MAN'S right to choose. You need to learn to read.
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