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Old May 13th, 2018, 06:38 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Nwolfe35 View Post
McCain is PROOF that torture does not work.

Our “enhanced interrogation” (aka torture) was supposed to get facts from the people being interrogated. McCains experience shows that a person will say ANYTHING.
We used enhanced interrogation not to get someone to say something for propaganda, but to get information out of that person. Like "who made the bomb?", "who is the leader of the cell?", "where is so and so?", "who/where/what is the target?", "where are my people?", and so on. The fact that we did learn so much, prevented attacks, killed many terrorists are proof that it does work. The fact that Osama's location was a secret even to his top lieutenants is proof that even the terrorists themselves know that it works.

I do not believe you understand the mechanics and methodology of torture because for one thing, water boarding is not tough enough because by now everyone knows that they'll be coming out of it once piece so it is only for the mentally weak. What we need is real torture and clear demonstrations of it. First, keep all the terrorists apart and torture them all separately, but make sure they can all hear each other screaming. Compare notes on what each one says and investigate. Nothing pans out, torture them all over again. Compare notes and investigate again. Nothing pans out, put them all in one room and pick the strongest one that the seem to all respect and torture the crap out of him. He coughs up some info, we investigate. Nothing pans out, torture him harder in front of his followers. Rinse and repeat over and over again. At some point he is going to be one big mess, missing body parts, covered with blood and snot, and having crapped and pissed all over himself. This is depriving him of dignity and instilling fear and horror among his followers. If he does not give up useful info after a torture cycle he will eventually die in front of his friends. You have now deprived them of their immediate leader, someone they respected and admired. Their confidence and resolve takes a hit.

Toss his body aside and bring the guy that appears to be the beta up to bat. Make sure you leave alpha's body in the room to rot and desecrate as needed. Pig's blood and urine for starters. He will not be going to heaven and his 72 virgins without an unwashed and wrapped body. Beta and the rest can see that. Psychological torture has just kicked in as beta is dragged up and hoisted up for his turn at the physical torture.

Someone WILL break eventually if you keep up the pressure, especially since as you are working your way down the line, you are dealing with less and less strong-minded and devoted. Even if by chance you went through this entire group without getting viable info, there is no lost since they surely as hell were not going to tell you if you were being nice. There is always the next batch. As always, leave the bodies in view and desecrate as needed to properly impress the incoming batch of torture nominees.

That, is war, and war is brutal. You do what it takes to win. All that pussyfooting just extends wars, especially if one side lights your people on fire while in a cage or cut off their heads with a rusty knife while we bitch about water boarding. Savagery has to be answered with savagery because savages do not appreciate kindness and compassion. On the contrary, they see it as our weakness. War should be so brutal that no one wants to engage in it. That is how nuclear detente works.

Don't be fooled. We may declare it illegal. But we will farm it out to places where it is not, and where the governments will gladly do what is needed to provide information. By outlawing water boarding, all we did was to shift the fate of our captives to the even more inhumane information extraction tactics of countries that do not share the pipe dreams of the gumbaya crowd in this country.

Last edited by Marcus Livius; May 13th, 2018 at 06:51 PM.
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Old May 13th, 2018, 07:28 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
Stop lying. What was stated by McInerney is as follows: "It worked on John [McCain]. That's why they call him 'Songbird John'" Many of those who served with McCain gave him that name. Just like many of those who served with John Kerry called him a traitor.

Stop misrepresenting what McInerney said.


JWK
No one who served with John Kerry called him a traitor.
Well, one guy who wasn't there for very long, although a lot of people who never met Kerry, lied on behalf of a draft dodger.
Because actual combat veterans are shit compared to tax cuts....
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Old May 13th, 2018, 07:42 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Marcus Livius View Post
We used enhanced interrogation not to get someone to say something for propaganda, but to get information out of that person. ...
Yah. I'm sure the Nazis & the Empire of Japan & the USSR used torture freely & often, indiscriminately. What I expect is that the KGB & GRU & their predecessors & successors in torture eventually generate a set of people who enjoy torture, enjoy inflicting pain, humiliation, injury, death. & yet, where are these three outfits? As well as the Spanish Empire, the Belgian enterprise in Congo, the French in French Indochina & Algeria? None of these spared anyone anything, & yet they're gone.

There is no amount of brutality that will uphold an unworthy nation. & from what I see in the history books, once a nation mistakes torture for protecting its sacred honor, it very soon loses all contact with the latter.
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Old May 13th, 2018, 07:43 PM   #44
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Torture is a fail simply because as many other people have noted, the person being tortured is going to say whatever plausible to make the torture stop, or at least slow down.

I was in Cambodia several years ago and went to the Killing Fields and the S-21, the high school turned into prison and torture chamber for the Khmer Rouge. Thousands of people went through there in four years, and only something like four people made it out of there alive. One main torture technique they employed was waterboarding, with eventually some or a number of the people made up false "confessions" to make the torture stop. These were just people rounded up by a very paranoid, genocidal government. Isn't the USA a bit better than the fking Khmer Rouge in how we treat detainees? Or during the Vietnam War when American prisoners were tortured into ridiculous confessions like "I was recruited in the CIA when I was 12 by Lumpy Rutherford, wanting to kill innocent Vietnamese...." for the Vietnamese to use as propaganda and a psychological technique against the other prisoners. Physical and mental pain working hand in hand.

My belief is also that anyone detained and arrested overseas (terrorists, so called enemy combatants) by the USA Government deserves the same constitutional protections as anyone who has committed other crimes. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols is a good example. I have a problem calling these people "enemy combatants" because the USA is not at war, as in there is no Declaration of War, so how can these people be "enemy combatants"? What about that crazy Islamic Army Major (who was a psychiatrist) who shot up a military base? Why didn't the government suspend his constitutional rights?

I think there are techniques which can be used to get information from people. First, solitary confinement. This is already done at the US Penitentary at Florence Colorado called the Supermax, where people are locked away in cells for 23-24 hours a day with nearly no human contact. For myself, I would much rather be executed than spending the rest of my life under those conditions. Like with the Boston Bomber kid, which sentence is worse, life in a concrete box (and him only being 21) or death, which will relieve the person of the torture of a meaningless existance?

Put someone in the cell with nothing but a mattress and a pillow, a toilet with all white walls with the lights on 24 hours a day. Add to that, play the same song over and over and over and over again for hours, days and weeks if need be. By song would be Maggie Mae by Rod Stewart. Feed the prisoner nothing but literal bread and water three times a day. If he doesn't want to eat, he will die. If he wants to give verifiable information to turn Rod Stewart off, or to be able to eat something else besides bread and water, or get things to read, the government is always available to listen.
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Old May 14th, 2018, 03:42 AM   #45
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We used enhanced interrogation not to get someone to say something for propaganda, but to get information out of that person...
The most successful US interrogator of Al Qaeda suspects was Ali Soufan, who used Tea and Cookies.

Just like the most successful Nazi interrogator of captured airmen during WWII used Coffee and Cigarettes.

Torture can be used to make people say things for propaganda purposes.
But it won't make people tell the truth, any "information" is suspect.
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Old May 14th, 2018, 03:44 AM   #46
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The argument is that "people will break" to stop the torture. This is probably true, BUT "breaking" and giving factual information to the enemy is NEVER guaranteed.

As McCain has said many times most POWs gave up something--but it was rarely accurate information. When the Vietnamese wanted names, McCain gave them the defensive line of the Green Bay Packers.
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Old May 14th, 2018, 04:42 AM   #47
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The argument is that "people will break" to stop the torture. This is probably true, BUT "breaking" and giving factual information to the enemy is NEVER guaranteed.
It is not. That is why for torture to work, one must verify and if shit don't pan out, you dial up the torture. You mix up the game. I ask you where the bomb was, you told me a wrong location, your wife is shot in front of you. I bring up your youngest born and ask same question. Do you not understand that to be effective, you have to assume the guy will die or tell you something. If I was wrong about your resolve, no lost, because you obviously would have not have told me anything if I did not try to get it out of you.

Quote:
As McCain has said many times most POWs gave up something--but it was rarely accurate information. When the Vietnamese wanted names, McCain gave them the defensive line of the Green Bay Packers.
You understand that the NV's were asking for shit they had no power to confirm nor enact upon? WTF were they gonna do with names? Send some dude in pajamas and cone hat to assassinate a US General that everyone in the fucking world already knows about and know exactly where he was in Japan?

The whole issue is that the NV's were fishing for info of no value to their abilities. They being unable to confirm the defensive line is proof of their lack of interest, ability, or power in pursuit. It proves the NV's were ineffective and says nothing about the power of torture because they obviously did not come back to beat McCain for giving them false info.

Get real. We torture for real info that we can enact upon on real time. That is why we have drones with Hellfire missiles. That is why we have all those task forces around the world.
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Last edited by Marcus Livius; May 14th, 2018 at 06:44 PM.
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Old May 14th, 2018, 04:46 AM   #48
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It is not. That is why for torture to work, one must verify and if shit don't pan out, you dial up the torture. You mix up the game. I ask you where the bomb was, you told me a wrong location, you wife is shot in front of you. I bring up your youngest born and ask same question. Do you not understand that to be effective, you have to assume the guy will die or tell you something. If it was wrong, no lost, because he obviously would have not have told you anything if your did not kick his ass.


You understand that the NV's were asking for shit they had no power to confirm nor enact upon? WTF were they gonna do with names? Send some dude in pajamas and cone hat to assassinate a US General that everyone in the fucking world already knows about and know exactly where he was in Japan?

Get real. We torture for real info that we can enact upon on real time. That is why we have drones with Hellfire missiles. That is why we have all those task forces around the world.


You seem to have taken on the role as our resident expert on torture. Were you the "giver" or the "taker"???
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Old May 14th, 2018, 05:10 AM   #49
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He's (McInerney) also a 9-11 conspiracy theorist, a birther, and generally ineffective loon.

That anyone would disparage an American hero like McCain, regardless of political persuasion, is disgusting.

The bitch who said that should be fired immediately.
You do make a lot of assertions, but like the birthers, you fail to provide documentation.


And what action should be taken towards people who state facts, including facts about McCain?

JWK




Without a Fifth Column Media, Yellow Journalism, Hollywood, and a corrupted FBI, Loretta Lynch, Hillary Clinton and Barack Hussein Obama, would be making license tags in a federal penitentiary

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Old May 14th, 2018, 07:45 AM   #50
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The simple truth is we don't need any kind of torture. Inflicting pain is inherently unreliable. People WILL tell you anything you want to hear just to stop the pain. Inquisition anyone ?

A little psychological manipulation goes a very very long way. 3 to 4 days of carefully managed sleep deprivation is all that's needed to get someone to tell you pretty much anything they have to offer. And what you get will be fairly truthful. They don't need to be waterboarded or have any pain at all inflicted.

I noticed when they first released the pictures of Saddam that he had a rather wild and disoriented look on his face. I strongly suspect we had had him in custody for a few days before they announced we had him. We already knew everything we wanted from him. The trial was just for show and to "legitimize" his execution.
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