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Old July 11th, 2018, 06:56 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Braveheart View Post
Free will says, do what you will with the cross my friend your choice!
Free will is a gift from God. However, we may use God's free gift to thwart his desire that all will be saved. And in so doing, we condemn ourselves to a place of torment and suffering created and eternally maintained by God.

That's your belief. Imo, your belief defames God. Moreover, you attack the veracity of the Bible. It plainly says:
"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." -- 1 Timothy 2:4

"The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand." -- John 3:35

"Thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." -- John 17:2

"All that the Father giveth me, shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in nowise cast out." -- John 6:37

"My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." -- John 4:34

"So shall by word be that goeth forth out of my mouth; it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." -- Isaiah 55:11

"Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure, which he hath purposed in himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of times, he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth, even in him." - -Ephesians 1:9,10

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." -- John 12:32

"We have seen, and do testify, that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world." -- 1 John 4:14
Your belief has the will of an omnipotent Creator thwarted by the created, who then spends eternity in conscious suffering and torment, and you call this God a loving God.

The Gospel has been perverted. The love of God has been replaced by the human desire for revenge.

You have recreated God in man's image, and Braveheart, it shows.
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Old July 11th, 2018, 08:52 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
Free will is a gift from God. However, we may use God's free gift to thwart his desire that all will be saved. And in so doing, we condemn ourselves to a place of torment and suffering created and eternally maintained by God.

That's your belief. Imo, your belief defames God. Moreover, you attack the veracity of the Bible. It plainly says:
"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." -- 1 Timothy 2:4

"The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand." -- John 3:35

"Thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." -- John 17:2

"All that the Father giveth me, shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in nowise cast out." -- John 6:37

"My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." -- John 4:34

"So shall by word be that goeth forth out of my mouth; it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." -- Isaiah 55:11

"Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure, which he hath purposed in himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of times, he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth, even in him." - -Ephesians 1:9,10

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." -- John 12:32

"We have seen, and do testify, that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world." -- 1 John 4:14
Your belief has the will of an omnipotent Creator thwarted by the created, who then spends eternity in conscious suffering and torment, and you call this God a loving God.

The Gospel has been perverted. The love of God has been replaced by the human desire for revenge.

You have recreated God in man's image, and Braveheart, it shows.
Wrong God gave his Son you will do with that what you will,(free will) he desires you to be saved but does not force it even after the Gift of his Son's life, it's pretty awesome that he doesn't force us after that kind of sacrifice huh.
Sorry dude
https://www.calvinistcorner.com/god-...-all-saved.htm


"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth"
(1 Tim. 2:3-4).
"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3:9).


To begin with, the answer to the question "Is it God's will that all people be saved?" must be "Yes," because that it what the Bible says. But does that mean that all will be saved? The answer is obviously, "No."

To begin with, are God's desires always accomplished? No, they are not. God's desire is that people do what is right and not sin: "To do righteousness and justice is desired by the Lord rather than sacrifice," (Prov. 21:3). But people still sin in spite of God's stated desire.
Was it the desire of God that Adam and Eve rebel? No. Was it God's will that David commit adultery? No. Yet, they did the very thing God did not want. God desires that all people repent (Acts 17:30); but not all do. Clearly, God's will is not always done.

In theology, when examining this issue of God's will and His allowance of sin, we distinguish between what is called God's perfect will and His permissive will. In His perfect will, He desires that all refrain from sin. But in His permissive will, He allows people to sin. In this sense, He has two wills regarding sin. He desires that sin not exist because it is contrary to His nature, yet He wills that it does by making provision for it in His sovereign plan. This does not mean that God brought sin into existence. It means that He simply permitted it by allowing the fall. Some may object and say that God does not will sin. I agree. However, this is not what I am saying. I am saying that God wills the circumstances to exist that make sin possible but that He is not responsible for the sin that occurs.

When people sin, God uses it, and other sins, for His glory and purpose. Please recall the account of Joseph's brothers who sinned by selling him into slavery and then lying to their father about it. After many years when the family was reunited, Joseph said, "And as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive" (Gen. 50:20). God meant it for good? How could that be if God is only passively allowing things to occur? Here, Joseph states that God had a purpose in their sin. Though God does not want sin, He made provision for it in His divine plan and even used the sinful deeds of people to accomplish His ultimate will. Consider also how evil people conspired against Jesus to bring Him to death. Was this God's plan that they do this?

"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur," (Acts 4:27-2.

Do you see how God had Herod and Pontius Pilate carry out His will? Didn't they sin in condemning Jesus? Yes! Did God predestine the crucifixion to occur? Yes!
But, this predestined occurrence required that people sin. Did God make them sin? No, for God does not tempt anyone (James 1:13). Yet, God, in His sovereignty carried out His predestined will using their sin to accomplish His will.
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Old July 11th, 2018, 08:56 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by GluteusMaximus View Post
But if he's perfect and omniscient, like you guys say, shouldn't he have KNOWN what would happen?

God can't do anything right, huh?

Regarding "free will"..you sure seem willing to deny women "free will" on abortion, huh? I guess you guys just can't get your lies/stances ironed out, huh?
Wrong all the time, do you get tired of it.

He permits sin to occur that is part of free will dude.

God can't do anything right?

Abortion is a choice they make, after the choice to lie with a man promiscuously, the willingly had sex why do they get to then take the human life within? Last I checked they could, it's wrong, but it is the law of the land. Oh and I choose to be against it.
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Old July 11th, 2018, 09:00 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
You seem to believe that the Great Spirit, the Creative force of the Universe, God, or whatever term you like to use is petty and vindictive.
BTW, why would you think your opinion is any more valid that mine is?
Wrong as usual, he is so loving that after giving his only begotten Son on the cross to die for your sins, he doesn't automatically force you to choose to be saved, free will it's great, but when you die that goes away. Choose wisely!

As for your second question
History is on my side, there is no doubt to the veracity that Christ was an actual historical person, or that he died the way it says he did.
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Old July 11th, 2018, 11:32 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Braveheart View Post
Wrong as usual, he is so loving that after giving his only begotten Son on the cross to die for your sins, he doesn't automatically force you to choose to be saved, free will it's great, but when you die that goes away. Choose wisely!

As for your second question
History is on my side, there is no doubt to the veracity that Christ was an actual historical person, or that he died the way it says he did.
YOU are the one that seems to think God is petty and vindictive, not I.

Are we all God's children? Yes or no?
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Old July 11th, 2018, 04:24 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
YOU are the one that seems to think God is petty and vindictive, not I.

Are we all God's children? Yes or no?
@ Braveheart

Well? Need time to think it over or what?
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Old July 11th, 2018, 08:31 PM   #87
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In my opinion, you follow another gospel than the one taught by Jesus Christ. The Gospel had begun to be distorted while the Apostles were still alive.Moreover Braveheart, you and I have dramatically different concepts of God, the character of God, the power of God, and the love of God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braveheart View Post
Wrong God gave his Son you will do with that what you will,(free will) he desires you to be saved but does not force it even after the Gift of his Son's life, it's pretty awesome that he doesn't force us after that kind of sacrifice huh.
A good example of our differing concepts of God. God commissioned Yeshua to finish the salvation of humankind, to fulfill God's desire that all human beings shall be saved, such is the perfect love of God. Nothing is forced upon anyone. Once a person's eyes are opened to the beauty, love, and simplicity of the Gospel, they cannot refuse the love of God.

The God you believe in does force people ...... into hell.

Quote:
Sorry dude
https://www.calvinistcorner.com/god-...-all-saved.htm


"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men toso be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth"
(1 Tim. 2:3-4).
"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3:9).
.

I have no issue with that simple truth. The salvation of all humankind was certain before humans were created.


Quote:
To begin with, the answer to the question "Is it God's will that all people be saved?" must be "Yes," because that it what the Bible says. But does that mean that all will be saved? The answer is obviously, "No."

To begin with, are God's desires always accomplished? No, they are not. God's desire is that people do what is right and not sin: "To do righteousness and justice is desired by the Lord rather than sacrifice," (Prov. 21:3). But people still sin in spite of God's stated desire.
God's omnipotence could not coexist with that being true.

Quote:
Was it the desire of God that Adam and Eve rebel? No.
Oh yes it was. Adam and Eve sinning was planned before they were created.

Quote:
Was it God's will that David commit adultery? No.
Yes. Everything that happens is "God's will."

Quote:
Yet, they did the very thing God did not want. God desires that all people repent (Acts 17:30); but not all do. Clearly, God's will is not always done.
That God isn't God. What that Godm wants doesn't necessarily come to pass. That God is neither omnipotent nor omniscient.

Quote:
In theology, when examining this issue of God's will and His allowance of sin, we distinguish between what is called God's perfect will and His permissive will. In His perfect will, He desires that all refrain from sin. But in His permissive will, He allows people to sin. In this sense, He has two wills regarding sin. He desires that sin not exist because it is contrary to His nature, yet He wills that it does by making provision for it in His sovereign plan. This does not mean that God brought sin into existence. It means that He simply permitted it by allowing the fall. Some may object and say that God does not will sin. I agree. However, this is not what I am saying. I am saying that God wills the circumstances to exist that make sin possible but that He is not responsible for the sin that occurs.

When people sin, God uses it, and other sins, for His glory and purpose. Please recall the account of Joseph's brothers who sinned by selling him into slavery and then lying to their father about it. After many years when the family was reunited, Joseph said, "And as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive" (Gen. 50:20). God meant it for good? How could that be if God is only passively allowing things to occur? Here, Joseph states that God had a purpose in their sin. Though God does not want sin, He made provision for it in His divine plan and even used the sinful deeds of people to accomplish His ultimate will. Consider also how evil people conspired against Jesus to bring Him to death. Was this God's plan that they do this?

"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur," (Acts 4:27-2.

Do you see how God had Herod and Pontius Pilate carry out His will? Didn't they sin in condemning Jesus? Yes! Did God predestine the crucifixion to occur? Yes!
But, this predestined occurrence required that people sin. Did God make them sin? No, for God does not tempt anyone (James 1:13). Yet, God, in His sovereignty carried out His predestined will using their sin to accomplish His will.
That's the story invented by the Church of Rome and subsequently all her daughter churches, a story used to control people, and to make it possible for "christian' churches to ally themselves with human governments, of which all stand in opposition to the Kingdom of God.
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Last edited by imaginethat; July 11th, 2018 at 08:35 PM.
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Old July 11th, 2018, 08:34 PM   #88
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Old July 11th, 2018, 11:04 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by GluteusMaximus View Post
Ooopsy!!

Can't help but wonder what the violation is. Was BH making unwanted passes at the other guys?
A word from the KJV of the Bible = https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/1%20Kings%2014:24
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Old July 12th, 2018, 03:21 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by imaginethat View Post
In my opinion, you follow another gospel than the one taught by Jesus Christ. The Gospel had begun to be distorted while the Apostles were still alive.Moreover Braveheart, you and I have dramatically different concepts of God, the character of God, the power of God, and the love of God.




A good example of our differing concepts of God. God commissioned Yeshua to finish the salvation of humankind, to fulfill God's desire that all human beings shall be saved, such is the perfect love of God. Nothing is forced upon anyone. Once a person's eyes are opened to the beauty, love, and simplicity of the Gospel, they cannot refuse the love of God.

The God you believe in does force people ...... into hell.

No he doesn't they choose not to accept the gift of God, what you say you believe makes the cross unnecessary, as well as repentance it makes the cross of no consequence.

.

I have no issue with that simple truth. The salvation of all humankind was certain before humans were created.

Matthew 7:21 New King James Version (NKJV)
I Never Knew You

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.




God's omnipotence could not coexist with that being true.



Oh yes it was. Adam and Eve sinning was planned before they were created.

God did not ‘create’ sin, because he cannot, because sin is the very opposite of God’s character. God is infinitely perfect and good, and, by definition Sin is a negative – the absence of good – it is “not good” and “not of God,” because as we’ll see below, God defines goodness.

God is infinitely perfect and good. Sin can only exist when God chooses to create something else, something other than him. Something finite. Something finite that then rejects his goodness, moving away from God, choosing to do “not good.” Sin exists because God did create something – he created the world, and he created humanity. Humans who were not infinite, who did not share God’s essence (while owing our existence to him, and existing in his world), and who turned our backs on God, trying to live as though we are God (and as though we define good for ourselves). In doing this we introduced evil, and sin, and death – the opposites of God’s good creation.




Yes. Everything that happens is "God's will."




That God isn't God. What that Godm wants doesn't necessarily come to pass. That God is neither omnipotent nor omniscient.



That's the story invented by the Church of Rome and subsequently all her daughter churches, a story used to control people, and to make it possible for "christian' churches to ally themselves with human governments, of which all stand in opposition to the Kingdom of God.
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