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Old July 11th, 2018, 06:58 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Peter the Roman View Post
True heroes.
Total assholes, fuck em'.
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Old July 11th, 2018, 07:16 AM   #32
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That's like me buying 20 assault rifles and when I nearly bankrupt myself, start demanding that all my neighbors do the same, because I made the neighborhood safe.

It won't happen. Nobody asked the US to spend this ridiculous sums, except their own military industrial and otherwise lobbies.

With such ridiculous demands two things will happen:

1. The EU will try to make nice with Russia, which is the only threat to them

2. The EU will try to become independent from US weapon purchases, because it sees the extortionist tactics the US is using. It will simply stop buying weapons from the US.
Yes, and like I've said before, NATO has not had a clear mandate since the Cold War ended! It was supposed to be for the protection of western Europe against the Soviet Union; but since the Fall, it has only served as the rubberstamp of approval for US presidents' foreign military ventures...."coalition of the willing" anyone! The American news audience can't tell the difference between NATO and UN, so the foreign wars all look legitimate from the US vantage point!

In the Unipolar world we live in today with US- full spectrum dominance, Europe and Canada are only interested in doing as little as possible for NATO maneuvers and operations (Trudeau announced sending 250 'trainers' to Iraq today...I guess that the 250 for the Mali operation wasn't enough).

Instead of protecting Europe, the EU nations today (especially Germany) see Russia as a cash cow, where big money could be made from gas and oil development. But, standing in the way is America! It didn't all start with Trump...there was a strategy...being quietly talked about and carried out under the Obama Administration of trying to convince Germany and other EU countries to take US shale-fracked gas transported across the Atlantic in LNG tankers. Problem? You probably guessed a couple already: LNG is still highly volatile...nobody even knows what the extent of the damage would be if an LNG carrier blew up in a major port city! This is still all new/largely untested technologies. AND it will cost at least three times as much to take their gas supplies from the much more expensive, much more dangerous and much more limited supply from US gas fracking.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-n...-idUSKBN1K10VI

The Obama Administration was trying to convince Germany and Europe to make the switch to expensive US gas quietly, in the backrooms and boardrooms/ but Trump doesn't has no capacity for subtlety! Everything is about bluster and bullshit, and right out in the open where everyone can see it! Germany takes huge economic risks of more punitive US economic measures now, but will they accept the humiliation of acting against their own interests and once again knuckling under to US demands? I'd say with a lame duck president in Germany - Merkel, they are more likely to refuse Trump's threats and get what they can out of a Russian...and possibly also Iranian deal, then accept anymore crap from the American Empire.
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Old July 11th, 2018, 07:27 AM   #33
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The Obama Administration was trying to convince Germany and Europe to make the switch to expensive US gas quietly, in the backrooms and boardrooms/ but Trump doesn't has no capacity for subtlety! Everything is about bluster and bullshit, and right out in the open where everyone can see it! Germany takes huge economic risks of more punitive US economic measures now, but will they accept the humiliation of acting against their own interests and once again knuckling under to US demands? I'd say with a lame duck president in Germany - Merkel, they are more likely to refuse Trump's threats and get what they can out of a Russian...and possibly also Iranian deal, then accept anymore crap from the American Empire.
They are trying to decouple themselves from the US:

France and Germany Have a Plan to Build a Stealth 6th-Generation Fighter | The National Interest

and many other initiatives.

The only thing Trump achieved is to make europeans start their own weapon development programs.
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Old July 11th, 2018, 09:14 AM   #34
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They are trying to decouple themselves from the US:

France and Germany Have a Plan to Build a Stealth 6th-Generation Fighter | The National Interest

and many other initiatives.

The only thing Trump achieved is to make europeans start their own weapon development programs.
I didn't see any mention of it in the article, but France and Germany collaborating on building fighter jets sounds like it's part of their plan to build a European Union Military:

E.U. Moves Closer to a Joint Military Force
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/13/w...ary-force.html

BRUSSELS — The European Union took an important step on Monday toward a substantive defense capacity, as 23 of the 28 member countries signed on to a program of joint military investment in equipment, research and development.

The intention is to jointly develop European military abilities and to make them available for operations separately or in coordination with NATO. The effort also aims to reduce the fragmentation of European military spending and to promote more joint projects to reduce duplication and waste.


US cautiously watching EU military proposal - Defense News
ROME ― The U.S. is keeping a close eye on a newly formed European Union joint defense agreement to ensure that European members are not distracted from their NATO commitments.

Katie Wheelbarger, principal deputy assistant secretary for international security affairs, told reporters travelling with Secretary of Defense Jim Mattis that the issue of fitting the new group and NATO together would be part of Mattis’ discussion with defense ministers this week in Europe.

“We are supportive of it, as long as it is complimentary to and not distracting from NATO’s activities and requirements,” Wheelbarger said. “We don’t want to see E.U. efforts pulling requirements or forces away from NATO and into the E.U.”

https://www.defensenews.com/global/e...tary-proposal/

Now there's the rub! And why Trump was sent off to Europe to badger the Euro leaders about being chintsy on NATO committments. A Euro Armed Forces of any configuration wouldn't be subject to US control...and a further sign that the EU is trying to unhook itself from US control.
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Old July 11th, 2018, 09:18 AM   #35
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True heroes.
You are truly sick.
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Old July 11th, 2018, 11:56 PM   #36
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If France or Germany didn't pay one red cent to Nato, would the US leave and disband their military in those countries. NOPE. They might even turn around and charge us for being on their land and we'd pay them.
It's been reported that Germany wants the US troops out of Germany.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8442021.html
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Old July 12th, 2018, 03:27 AM   #37
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Well, another "crisis" TRump has created and claimed he fixed.

Does anyone else see that he is the same as a fireman who sets a fire so he can rush to put it out?

Those guys go to jail. So should Trump.
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Old July 12th, 2018, 03:36 AM   #38
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Downward trend was ALSO under Obama.
https://www.factcheck.org/2017/12/di...unding-figure/

In 2006, NATO members agreed to try to spend at least 2 percent of their gross domestic product on defense spending. In 2014, they agreed again to aim to meet that standard by 2024.
As of now, though, only the U.S., Greece, Estonia, Britain, Romania and Poland meet the 2 percent target, which led Trump to argue that our allies are not paying their “fair share.”
But other countries have been spending more in recent years. The estimated 4.3 percent bump in 2017 was the third straight year that defense spending by Canada and European allies increased, according to NATO.
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Old July 12th, 2018, 03:41 AM   #39
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It's been reported that Germany wants the US troops out of Germany.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8442021.html
Interesting article. Thank you. Why would any country want another countries military in it, it was fine after WWII , but this Nato thing racked up after 9-11,

we will not leave.
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Old July 12th, 2018, 04:07 AM   #40
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I didn't see any mention of it in the article, but France and Germany collaborating on building fighter jets sounds like it's part of their plan to build a European Union Military:

E.U. Moves Closer to a Joint Military Force
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/13/w...ary-force.html

BRUSSELS — The European Union took an important step on Monday toward a substantive defense capacity, as 23 of the 28 member countries signed on to a program of joint military investment in equipment, research and development.

The intention is to jointly develop European military abilities and to make them available for operations separately or in coordination with NATO. The effort also aims to reduce the fragmentation of European military spending and to promote more joint projects to reduce duplication and waste.


US cautiously watching EU military proposal - Defense News
ROME ― The U.S. is keeping a close eye on a newly formed European Union joint defense agreement to ensure that European members are not distracted from their NATO commitments.

Katie Wheelbarger, principal deputy assistant secretary for international security affairs, told reporters travelling with Secretary of Defense Jim Mattis that the issue of fitting the new group and NATO together would be part of Mattis’ discussion with defense ministers this week in Europe.

“We are supportive of it, as long as it is complimentary to and not distracting from NATO’s activities and requirements,” Wheelbarger said. “We don’t want to see E.U. efforts pulling requirements or forces away from NATO and into the E.U.”

https://www.defensenews.com/global/e...tary-proposal/

Now there's the rub! And why Trump was sent off to Europe to badger the Euro leaders about being chintsy on NATO committments. A Euro Armed Forces of any configuration wouldn't be subject to US control...and a further sign that the EU is trying to unhook itself from US control.
And Trump just gave it a push and made it more needed than ever.
I suspect the UK will join and forgo Brexit.
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